Joseph wrote on Nov 9, 2005 2:38 PM:I have to seriously question the use of WP as a weapon. When used as described in the story, WP will form a toxic chemical cloud which will kill within a 0.5 km radius. George Bernard Shaw said that the terrible consequence of a war against evil is that we must become worse than what we fight to succeed; I fear for the hearts and souls of our troops.

KJB43 wrote on Nov 10, 2005 2:39 AM:"joesph" does not know what he is talking in reference to WP. It does not create a toxic cloud that will kill at half a kilometer away. Ask any veteran of WWII, or Korea or Vietnam; where the stuff was used in battle. Look up WP on the internet. The stuff burns super hot and burns very brightly, its primary use is marking and illumination. WP's secondary use is starting fires. Getting a fragment on clothing will set it on fire, getting a WP fragment on the skin can burn a hole in the body. The phosphorus fumes are not pleasant to breath, but inhaling them will not kill you like some poison gas.

Colin wrote on Nov 10, 2005 7:23 AM:WP is a banned chemical weapon when used as artillery, and is only tolerated for illumination purposes. The use of WP in and around Fallujah has long been denied by the US administration. The monstrous hypocrisy of going to Iraq to disarm a dictator of chemical weapons, not finding any, and then using our own chemical weapons on civilian populations is so shocking that world opinion will never forgive us.

Norman wrote on Nov 10, 2005 9:10 AM:I don't understand what America has turned into. We kill children and think nothing of it. The United States should be on trail for mass murder. I know you will not use this and I don't care but Bush and company will someday sent to jail for what they have done. And no I don't support the troops seems like to me they love the art of killing and don't care who it is.

Steve wrote on Nov 10, 2005 10:05 AM:So what does this mean? Why are "round after round of WP needed? "Bogert is a mortar team leader who directed his men to fire round after round of high explosives and white phosphorus charges into the city Friday and Saturday, never knowing what the targets were or what damage the resulting explosions caused."

Steve wrote on Nov 10, 2005 10:21 AM:[When I drive through Oceanside, CA and see the "Kill Them All: Let God sort them out" bumperstickers next to the round USMC decals... well then, why not a "Baby-Killer US Marine On-Board" bumpersticker, too? What's the problem, jarhead? If you're going to fight for a global empire in an illegal and unjust war of aggression, then take pride in your work.] [quoted from the article...] Every day since they started firing rounds into the city [04/10/2005 so we're talking about a fully populated, unevacuated city the size of Cincinati, Ohio], other Marines have stopped by the mortar pit to take a turn dropping mortars into the tube and firing at some unseen target. Like tourists at some macabre carnival, some bring cameras and have other troops snap photos of their combat shot. Even the battalion surgeon fired a few Saturday, just for sport. Everyone wants to "get some," the troops explain, some joking that Fallujah is like a live-fire range. Some have started to think of what happens after all the guns go silent. "I just don't want to come home and have someone calling me a baby killer," Alexander said after firing dozens of high explosive mortar rounds into the city. "That would piss me off." Alexander said no one has told him what the charges have hit.

Doug wrote on Nov 10, 2005 11:46 AM:Well, Steve, just above your quote you'll note that Bogert, the mortar team leader, received a "fire mission". Somebody called him up and told him where the armed insurgents were holed up; he verified the map coordinates and his team performed the fire mission. That's the way troops under fire have called for support from remote artillery units since WWII.

mobux wrote on Nov 10, 2005 1:47 PM:Firing wiley pete indiscriminately into a town? The whole thing stinks. This is not patriotism. This is mass murder and the scum in Washington should be removed.

Joe wrote on Nov 10, 2005 2:08 PM:What I don't want people to do is act suprised that this goes on. Never forget Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Massacres in Korea, Vietnam, Abu Ghraib, secret Prisons. Just add it to the list and then try and sound astonished when the next war crime occurs. Lets stop the pretence of fighting for freedom, honor and democracy.

Steve wrote on Nov 10, 2005 3:02 PM:Yes, Doug, the Marine "received a fire mission." Yes, he correctly and mechanically followed artillery fire protocol. So what? According to Iraq Body Count's Press Release #9 (Tuesday 26th October 2004), of the 800+ Iraqis killed in the April 2003 US offensive, 600 were Iraqi CIVILIANS, over 300 of which were WOMEN and CHILDREN killed by US Marines "following orders." Read it for yourself here... "No Longer Unknowable: Falluja's April Civilian Toll is 600"-- (http://www.iraqbodycount.net/press/archive.php#pr9) Here (http://www.empirenotes.org/fallujah.html) you can read about and see the Fallujah scoccer field turned into a mass grave as well as a neat photograph of a Fallujah AMBULANCE windshield with two bullet holes precisely placed by a US Marine sniper directly into the driver's seat. Under the Geneva Conventions, that's called a war crime.

Paul wrote on Nov 10, 2005 10:42 PM:I'm a reader from New Zealand just surfing the net. Thank you to those americans justly appalled by the crimes committed by your government in your name. No one else has a vote to reign your govt in; no one has the money; no one else has the armies to end the brutal hypocrisy. That's why people fly planes into buildings instead. We're counting on good americans to save the world, stop the pain, by stopping their government.

David wrote on Nov 11, 2005 9:00 AM:I am amazed that people will defend Islamo-fascists. The USA has a right to subdue and kill fascists anywhere in the world. Whether they live in Iraq or New Zealand or in Oceanside.We did not permit Nazi rule why should we permit Islamic fascists to rule anywhere ?

Shahid wrote on Nov 11, 2005 3:23 PM:As a former Royal Marine I find this kind of war my brothers in arms are forced to fight as utterly deplorable. What hapenned to honor on the battlefield, of coming home to your family and being praised for a job well done. Instead these young men will be labled as murderers - does Vietnam ring a bell? In times gone by your king, leader, commander would lead his men onto the battlefield, these days they hide in their places of residence surrounded by an army of bodyguards. Whatever hapenned to leading by example?

Anonymous (USA) wrote on Nov 12, 2005 10:45 PM:Ha ha ha. USA is having fun... Guess what - "what goes around, comes around"... I disagree with my country's actions. I greatly fear for our future.

RAI 2 viewer wrote on Nov 14, 2005 6:30 AM:For what it's worth, RAI 2, a year later, has now confirmed use of WP as an antipersonnel weapon in Fallujah. With filmed footage and photos. And testimony from US Marines about being warned that WP had been used before they entered Fallujah and seeing the resulting distinctively burned corpses. And interviews with civilian survivors who describe a "multicolored rain of fire" coming down on the city. Of course, the US mainstream media is still not reporting this story. But the truth will come out eventually. And then, yes, sadly, people will be calling the Marines babykillers. What I most want to know is: where were the mid-level field officers when all this was happening? It was their job to protest, to demand proper explanation of targets and orders, to refuse to follow orders that they knew to be wrong or illegal. For once I have to agree with George W. Bush: we as a nation need to relearn the meaning of personal responsibility!

Zarina wrote on Nov 15, 2005 5:25 AM:I agree with all those who can see through this hypocrisy of the empire which has gone down with the sun, the British! What Peace have soldiers restored really? I sympathise with parents who lost their offspring thinking they were sending them for some 'noble' cause. Was Iraq which never attacked UK/US a 'noble cause' with the carnage of deaths? Remembrance Day?!

Dan wrote on Nov 16, 2005 12:33 PM:I’m ashamed. We are using chemical weapons. White phosphorus ammo not only produces heat but also chemical burns. The same amount of heat produced from a conventional round does not consume people to the bone. Water and other oxygen containing compounds are sucked out of human flesh by a chemical reaction. Some of you may argue that WP is non-toxic, but the extreme chemical reactivity of molecular white phosphorus is higher than the one of some WWI weapons. Again, what a shame!

jack wrote on Nov 16, 2005 5:15 PM:we condemn the insurgents for using car bombs that kill a minimum of people while we saturate city nightly with 500 pound bombs , never knowing, or apparently caring how many Iraquis we kill.

Steve wrote on Nov 17, 2005 10:00 AM:Well, so much for the US government’s lies about its use of chemical weapons against personnel in Fallujah… READ this… “The US used chemical weapons in Iraq - and then lied about it” by George Monbiot Tuesday November 15, 2005 The Guardian found here [http://www.guardian.co.uk/Columnists/Column/0,,1642831,00.html] … “Did US troops use chemical weapons in Falluja? The answer is yes. The proof is not to be found in the documentary broadcast on Italian TV last week, which has generated gigabytes of hype on the internet. It's a turkey, whose evidence that white phosphorus was fired at Iraqi troops is flimsy and circumstantial. But the bloggers debating it found the smoking gun.” …”The first account they unearthed in a magazine published by the US army. In the March 2005 edition of Field Artillery, officers from the 2nd Infantry's fire support element boast about their role in the attack on Falluja in November last year: "White Phosphorous. WP proved to be an effective and versatile munition. We used it for screening missions at two breeches and, later in the fight, as a potent psychological weapon against the insurgents in trench lines and spider holes when we could not get effects on them with HE [high explosive]. We fired 'shake and bake' missions at the insurgents, using WP to flush them out and HE to take them out." …The second, in California's North County Times, was by a reporter embedded with the marines in the April 2004 siege of Falluja. "'Gun up!' Millikin yelled ... grabbing a white phosphorus round from a nearby ammo can and holding it over the tube. 'Fire!' Bogert yelled, as Millikin dropped it. The boom kicked dust around the pit as they ran through the drill again and again, sending a mixture of burning white phosphorus and high explosives they call 'shake'n'bake' into... buildings where insurgents have been spotted all week." …White phosphorus is not listed in the schedules of the Chemical Weapons Convention. It can be legally used as a flare to illuminate the battlefield, or to produce smoke to hide troop movements from the enemy. Like other unlisted substances, it may be deployed for "Military purposes... not dependent on the use of the toxic properties of chemicals as a method of warfare". BUT IT BECOMES A CHEMICAL WEAPON AS SOON AS IT IS USED DIRECTLY AGAINST PEOPLE [whether combatants or civilians]. A chemical weapon can be "any chemical which through its chemical action on life processes can cause death, temporary incapacitation or permanent harm". … AND ONLY NOW after being caught out in the open by the bloggers’ own “shake and bake” operations, ONLY NOW the Pentagon comes clean: “Pentagon [Admits It] Used White Phosphorous in Iraq [on Personnel]” in New York Times published November 16, 2005 found here [http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/national/AP-Iraq-White-Phosphorous.html].

Steve wrote on Nov 17, 2005 10:22 AM:And now this... "'Incendiary weapons': The big white lie US finally admits using white phosphorus in Fallujah - and beyond. Iraqis investigate if civilians were targeted with deadly chemical" The Independent/UK 17 November 2005 [http://news.independent.co.uk/world/politics/article327543.ece] "The Iraqi government is to investigate the United States military's use of white phosphorus shells during the battle of Fallujah - an inquiry that could reveal whether American forces breached a fundamental international weapons treaty...."

Danny Bee wrote on Nov 19, 2005 11:01 PM:Dareen, Saw you on CNN today discussing this.

Jason wrote on Jan 27, 2006 1:50 PM:MOST OF YOU PEOPLE MAKE ME SICK. yOU CARE SO MUCH ABOUT WHAT TYPE OF WEAPONS OR AMMUNITION WE USE AND HOW INHUMANE IT IS TO USE THEM. i FEEL WE SHOULD USE ANY FORCE NECESARY TO EXTERMINATE ALL THE BAD GUYS. EVERYBODY FORGETS ABOUT 9/11 AND THE EXECUTIONS THAT HAPPEN ON A EVERYDAY BASIS OVER THERE,THAT MY I ADD ARE SHOWN ON T.V. IN THERE COUNTRY. IT SOUNDS LIKE MOST OF YOU CARE FOR THE WELFARE OF THE IRAQI'S RATHER THAN THE MEN AND WOMAN THAT FIGHT FOR YOUR FREEDOM. MOST OF YOU PROBABLY HAVE NO IDEA WHAT IF FEELS LIKE TO HAVE INSURGENTS SHOOTING AT YOU EVERY OTHER DAY. MOST OF ARE IGNORENT.

nick stone wrote on Mar 21, 2006 10:14 AM:Hi i AM FROM uk and read the comments carefully. I think the quotation from Shaw sums it up about evil. As for the marines I do not believe these are cold blooded baby killers, they are human beings with loved ones and families and many will suffer psychological damage after, ignore the war bravado; the psychology of survival in war time makes you de-humanise your enemy otherwise you could not kill. It has always been so. The true men with blood on their hands are the politicians as always. More worrying is the current accusations of marine close up killing of civilians including children in execution style action,because that would be a slide towards the edge. As someone of Greek origens who has seen his family's village where in 1943 the Germans murdere almost a 1000 men and male children from 12 upwards c/o partisan activities I feel I can comment.

A Marine In Iraq wrote on Apr 4, 2006 5:23 PM:To all you who read this, Me and my fellow brothers are the ones that are allowing you this freedom of speech you are practicing. If you have never been to Iraq or combat anywhere and dont really know what is actually going on, you can shut your pathetic mouth. You all sit here and whine yet you do nothing about it but complain that a few civilians got killed. Who's to say though that the women and children weret shooting at the troops? Ive seen ambulances with weapons and IED making material in the back of the ambulance. And guess what, the driver is now dead because he tried to shot at us out his window. Yes its sad to see someone innocent die, but I guess the 185,000 kurds that Saddom killed were all guitly of something right?

INJURED MARINE'S WIFE wrote on May 27, 2006 10:17 PM:THANK GOD YOU STOOD UP TO THESE PEOPLE(MARINE IN IRAQ) I AM ABSOLUTLY DISGUSTED BY WHAT YOU PEOPLE ARE SAYING, COMPLAINNING THAT WE ARE USING ILLUM ROUNDS IN THE WRONG WAY. SORRY TO SAY, BUT WHO THE HECK CARES HOW WE ARE USING THEM, IF USEING THOESE ILLUM ROUND GETS MY HUSBAND HOME SAFE THEN SO BE IT. MY HUSBAND WAS ONE OF THOESE GUYS IN CHARGE OF FIRING A TON OF ILLUM ROUNDS AND THANKS TO THIS ACT TO NOT TO CONTINUE IT ANYMORE, TWO OF HIS FRIENDS ARE DEAD AND HE WAS INJURED BECAUSE THEY GOT SENT TO DO SOMETHING ELSE. AND GOT FREAKIN BLOWN UP BY AN IED. AND YOU KNOW WHAT, IF WE WOULD OF STILL BEEN FIRING THOESE ILLUM ROUNDS MAYBE THE INSURGENTS WOULDNT OF HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO SET UP THE IED THAT COST TWO GREAT MEN THERE LIVES AND SEVERAL OTHERS INJURIES. SO LIKE THE MARINE IN IRAQ WROTE, UNLESS YOU HAVE EXPERIANCED IT OUR HAVE A CLOSE TIE TO IT, SHUT YOU TRAPS, BECAUSE THOESE MEN NEED SUPPORT, NOT IGNORANT PEOPLE BAD MOUTHING THEM!!!!!!!!!!!

I HATE LEFTISTS wrote on Jul 29, 2006 1:27 AM:Wake up America. You are a bunch of whinning cry-babies. All you do is protest our soldiers, Bush and the American way. If you don't like these three, then just leave. This country has turned soft because of the democratic complainers. All you people do is taint a great nation. SUPPORT OUR TROOPS. Also, if anyone ever calls a modern US soldier a baby- killer, they aught to be arrested and unmercifully beat by the soldier in question. This is my take and I dont care what you leftists think about it. Embrace our military, dont destroy it! GO USA. I salute and support our men and women in uniform.

From Abroad wrote on Aug 4, 2006 10:44 PM:Yes, you leftists, democratic whiners, you all should leave USA. Do not you understand that your soldiers are carrying out the patriotic duty of keeping in full shape Exxon and Halliburton pockets? Not that they are great job-producers nor tax-payers but they make your politicians richer and happier... and is so nice to see them smiling at the tv! What if in the process your loose your health insurance or the scholarships for your children? As long as you are allowed to shut your gun once in a while, the American way will goes as usual. Besides not that your leftist-haters need education really, neither long, fulfilling lives... aren't they meant to eventually be deployed to Mid-East as soldiers? No bachellor degree is needed for shake and bake! Those are goals that deserve having a limbless, serial war criminal in the family, isn't it? Of course, there is the problem of the budgetary deficit growing crazy... but again, with no state services for the average citizen, that is not a problem! In the meanwhile, you, awful but highly educated and science/art/technology-producer leftists, may accept your fate, look for some emergent economy (a country without oil, for security reasons) and see your former motherland crumbling as you make your contribution to some other society's well-being. Anyway, who says moral and law had anything to do with freedom and democracy?!

Sandy wrote on Aug 29, 2006 12:14 PM:I'm a civilian, female. To: "A Marine in Iraq" and "Injured Marine's Wife", I say Major Honkin Ditto's!!!!!! I have watched the sickening media report on OUR troops from the first day of the push to Baghdad. As an American I never knew how impressed I could be by the discipline, professionalism and compassion of OUR military. They have made me proud to be born in America. I grew up believing in "Survival of the Fittest", and "Kill Or Be Killed". You whiners out there on these blogs would never walk through the Triangle of Death in Iraq unless you were BEHIND a United States Marine. You can't send these guys into Hell and expect them to play by the rules of Heaven. You whiners remind me of the old westerns on tv where the bad guys are taking over the town, killing and pillaging. The townspeople run their mouths but cower and want the HERO to save their butts (usually not worth saving). Time to Grow Up!!! America is the strongest country on this planet. Where's your pride?? We have the Best military on this planet. Where's your pride and gratitude? Shame on you!!! I feel safe BECAUSE of our military. Marines..you are the Best of the Best. God Bless you and thank you for being there for us.

hard luck chuck 1/1 wrote on Nov 27, 2006 3:10 PM:Being a Marine and seeing some of my brothers die has, in some ways, hardened my heart. I can truly say I never intentionally targeted a woman or child but these things do and will happen. every Marine, Soldier, Sailor involved in combat operations where this happened expressed only sadness and anger towards the insurgent using them as shields. If ever I hear someone calling anyone of these Americans baby killers just remember what marines are trained to do. 2 to the chest and 1 to the head. Your opinions are your own and THOUSANDS of Americans have died to retain those rights for you. So appreciate that and keep some opinions to yourself.

hard luck chuck 1/1 wrote on Nov 27, 2006 3:19 PM:Being a Marine and seeing some of my brothers die has, in some ways, hardened my heart. I can truly say I never intentionally targeted a woman or child but these things do and will happen. every Marine, Soldier, Sailor involved in combat operations where this happened expressed only sadness and anger towards the insurgent using them as shields. If ever I hear someone calling anyone of these Americans baby killers just remember what marines are trained to do. 2 to the chest and 1 to the head. Your opinions are your own and THOUSANDS of Americans have died to retain those rights for you. So appreciate that and keep some opinions to yourself.

Marine Mom wrote on Apr 12, 2007 1:04 PM:For all you people that have so much to complain about when it comes to our military and how they fight the war in Iraq. I think you should just go over to Iraq and show everybody how you would do it. I bet you will sing a different tune when the insurgents start firing back. When in war you have to fight back anyway you see fit to win, I want my son to come HOME in one piece, and if that means shooting off high explosive mortar rounds well so be it. If anybody ever calls my son a baby killer,they will have to deal with me. Those ungrateful people that say things like that have no idea what they are saying. If we don't go over there they (insurgents) will be coming hear and the will kill your babies. Think before you open your mouth and say something stupid.

random reader wrote on Sep 20, 2007 12:41 PM:What ever happened to freedom of expression and speech? i have many friends serving in the military, in the air force, army, and marines, and all i have to say is that maybe everyone here should pick up some history books and read back to why this nation was founded (specific reasons, not just for freedom and democracy) and then look on how this country is now. focus on the creation of the Federal Reserve(a private corporation), the many complaints that the former colonialists had against the british empire, and the way this nation has conducted itself since 1945(the end of ww2). Then ask yourself whether we actually are aiming for the same ideals as many believe. Look at the massive amounts of legislation passed in the name of keeping us safe, and compare them to the legislation passed by the worlds most brutal tyrants(concerning information and surveillance) there are records of these available if one cares to look. Then one could look at the presidential remarks on many laws passed since 2000, and question whether congress really matters when the president states that he will interpret the newly passed legislation as he wills. i support our troops, and do not want to create a situation in which many more american soldiers are wasted in nation building efforts(which before 9-11, pres. bush was very opposed to). also this goes to everyone who has commented here: Have any of you lived in a third world country, or has any extensive first hand experience with non-european cultures? And do you believe that you know whats best for another nation, when this one has many issues that are imperative to deal with?(education, infrastructure{in that many of the piping within major metropollitan areas in america are 100 yrs old and above}, jobs, the ever mounting national debt which is set to reach its maxim of 8.965 billion by october 1st? [Web site deleted, see nctimes.com/blogpolicy] also where is the outcry for the treatment of our soliders when they return from service which, WE ALL sent them to, injured of disabled? we owe a great debt to our soldiers, and we also have a duty to our nation to ensure that our prosperity and way of life continue to flourish. you can decide whether the price is acceptable( but judging from many responses here, as long as you believe we are winning, anything is acceptable

usmcmom wrote on May 29, 2008 4:58 PM:Even though we do not support all the killings due to the War, we do support our American troops especially our son. Unfortunately, they DO NOT have a choice as to where or whom they will fight! Our son enlisted in the USMC so that his Country and it's people would not be harmed and if it meant sacrificing his own life to save American lives, than he was going to do so, as well as so many others that serve today and have served in the past. The USA fights for FREEDOM and Rights. Ignorance is not an option to the stupidity and ungratefulness to so many people that think that their right to live freely was just given to them. NO, many have died in order for ignorant people to have the freedom of speech. Our Troops don't complaint when they are insulted, all they ask is for our support in their service to the USA.
As our son says, " I'm just doing my job and following orders". A police officer doesn't just his weapon to kill someone, he uses it to protect and defend himself, no different than our troops. The Marines motto is, " Kill or be killed". They don't want to go on a shooting spree, but they too want to come home safe and sound to their families. We feel that people that instead of thanking our troops or their families, should enlist in an armed service branch and go fight in a war zone. THAN, maybe you will walk in our troops shoes!