Joe wrote on Nov 22, 2006 12:23 AM:This war is a travesty. Our President is an idiot and every man or woman who supports him or this war is to blame. A young soldier is sent to war with orders to kill. That is what we ask of young soldiers. To judge this corporal now for doing what he was sent to do is unconscionable. He is not to blame for these deaths. George Bush is to blame for these deaths, and George Bush deserves the sentence of this man who braved his life to serve his country.

To Joe wrote on Nov 22, 2006 3:30 AM:I agree with your anger toward the president that he has put our young people into such horrible situations. But we have to hold our troops accountable if they commit war crimes. Otherwise we are just as bad as the insurgents.

USMC (retired) wrote on Nov 22, 2006 5:04 AM:To all who read this, know that our fighting forces are the best trained in the world and the best armed. Although training and equipment can make you better at anything, it can't however prepare you for actual combat. The stress and fog of war can and does twist the even the most disciplined minds. However we can hold each other accountable for acts of bad judgement. And the military courts martial has done this as the trials each have proven. To argue the merits of each others deeds post action, profits you little unless you learn from your collective mistakes and triumphs. War is hell! We have, all of us at one time or another made bad choices....Each time we support a Congress that supports a President that is willing to violate the written laws, we shoulder the blame as Americans. These men are forever scared with the blood of taking a innocent life. What greater punishment would you be willing to suffer. Who will stand up and make a difference here in the home of the free and the brave, our America? SEMPER FIDELIS

RHW wrote on Nov 22, 2006 5:32 AM:THESE MARINES ARE VICTUMS OF THE POLITICALLY CORRECT ATTITUDE OF TODAY. THEY ARE MARINES, SENT TO DO A JOB THAT THE WHINERS ARE TO AFRAID TO DO. THE COMPLAINERS, THE ONES BLAMING THE PRESIDENT ARE THE ONES WHO LET OTHERS DO THE DIRTY WORK TO KEEP THEM FREE.

To Joe and To To Joe wrote on Nov 22, 2006 5:36 AM:I agree that our President and others in his administration are war criminals. BUT the individual Marines are responsible for their own particular horrors. I don't believe that these men are typical of our military. They went off on some self appointed blood lust killing spree. Their light sentences are a travesty--they neither punish or protect our communities.

John1 to"TO Joe" wrote on Nov 22, 2006 5:53 AM:But, our Marines are trained to be so fearsome that those who would help the insurgents fear us more than "them"....How do you reconcile this training and leadership?

Gene wrote on Nov 22, 2006 6:01 AM:The corporate media is responsible for the myth that all of our troops are heroes, defending our freedom and liberty, when in actuality, they are unquestioning automatons, attempting to enforce our neo-colonialist policy on the Middle East.

To John1 wrote on Nov 22, 2006 7:28 AM:Reconcile? There used to be an organization that was called "The Fellowship for Reconciliation" that taught alternatives to war. The word "reconciliation" brought that to mind. Perhaps if there were more of that there would be less need for military training objectives of removing all the civilizing influences taught from infancy by parents, teachers, church, boy scouts etc etc. Certainly there were many alternatives other than invading Iraq! I agree that we intentionally desensitize our young recruits, and do so at our peril, because those hardened men, return to live among us, marry our daughters and hold our grandchildren.

DISGRACE wrote on Nov 22, 2006 7:39 AM:SHOULD RECEIVE LONGER PRISON TERM FOR THE MURDER OF AN INNOCENT CIVILIAN AND THEN BE DISHONORABLY DISCHARGED....HOW CAN ONLY 21 MONTHS JUSTIFY MURDER

Paul wrote on Nov 22, 2006 7:53 AM:It should be obvious for anybody - even for an American - that shooting to civilians in not good. I know that your education system is not among the best. But c'mon some things are just obvious. NEVER KILL CIVILIANS. Did you learned something from 9/11: "It is never good to kill innocent civilians" What excuse you use (i.e. "they are terrorists" vs. "they are not muslims") does not matter.

Robert wrote on Nov 22, 2006 8:29 AM:War is war where the stress from fire, fear fights, bombs, and support of comrades (whose watching your back) can change a person more than anything a person can imagine who has not walked in their shoes. However, they represent the leading country for freedom and rights in the World and therefore are held to a higher standard. Above all else they know right from wrong and all individually and as a group made the wrong decision that has impacted the lives of their victims and relatives, their own relatives and family name, themselves, and how America’s military is viewed by the World’s population. The blame can only reside within each one of them and they will have to live with that for the rest of their lives. The lenient punishment is questionable like all things, however, they are a part of history now and will be known forever to the World for the hideous and unhonorable act they committed and the punishment will follow them throughout their lives and after for they cannot hide from history and the power of the Internet to reveal their past. To those that blame others, is to be ignorant of taking responsibility for one’s own actions; humans are blessed with very intelligent brains so use it else you too may one day walk in like shoes forever always wondering when someone will discover your nightmare and you then have to move, hide, and or start life over again and again.

An Observer wrote on Nov 22, 2006 8:49 AM:USMC (retired) wrote being scarred with taking an innocent life is enough punishment. I disagree. They participated in the plan, and the careful cover-up. They sat in the brig for months letting their expensive attorneys defend their innocence for months instead of taking responsibility from the beginning. I doubt that having an innocent man’s blood on their hands will faze them in the least. Instead, they are congratulating themselves for getting away with 21 months – including time served and making plans for their futures. This was a rogue band of Marines, making their own rules and a disgrace to the USMC.

Larry wrote on Nov 22, 2006 8:56 AM:These soldiers are not children who don't know right from wrong. My experience in the military showed me the difference between being caught up in the hate, and someone being the voice of reason in a crowd. It was seldom me, but when I heard it I knew immediateally that what I was doing was wrong. We who knew the truth but ignored it were cowards, not heros, because we were afraid to go against the combined wills of group. The hero was the guy who spoke up at the risk of, in some cases his life, if not bodily harm. I've had my ... kicked more than once for trying to be that hero, but I don't regret it today. What I do regret is the times I did serious harm to others, as a willing participant of an ignorant mob. I don't believe in God so I know that I will never be forgiven, ever.

Kari wrote on Nov 22, 2006 9:01 AM:He should have known not to do it. One of my family members was in the Marines and he knew better.

kari wrote on Nov 22, 2006 9:02 AM:"He should have known not to do it

Greg wrote on Nov 22, 2006 9:28 AM:The real tragity here is that this story made the papers, Death is the outcome of war and human nature has to be reduced to a low level to conduct military operations ie killing, these men were prepared for this activity by the corp. I dont say this is wrong, what we need are better, stronger and more professional NCO's who understand the mission of the military. I am willing to bet the average age of the squad was very young. Its a sad day for America when we send these fine weapons of war to jail when it was us who failed them. As for the loss of life in Iraq it will continue to happen the ciuntry will soon spin into a helpess civil war

Greg wrote on Nov 22, 2006 9:31 AM:The real tragedy here is that this story made the papers, Death is the outcome of war and human nature has to be reduced to a low level to conduct military operations IE killing, these men were prepared for this activity by the corp. I dont say this is wrong, what we need are better, stronger and more professional NCO's who understand the mission of the military. I am willing to bet the average age of the squad was very young. Its a sad day for America when we send these fine weapons of war to jail when it was us who failed them. As for the loss of life in Iraq it will continue to happen the country will soon spin into a helpless civil war

USMC Iraq Vet wrote on Nov 22, 2006 9:34 AM:THIS HAS OCCURRED IN EVERY WAR, AND WILL OCCUR IN EVERY WAR WE ENGAGE IN. INNOCENT CIVILIANS DIE IN THE MESS. WE SCRUTINIZE AND SCRUTINIZE OUR FORCES AND IF WE CONTINUE THIS WILL RENDER US INEFFECTIVE. THESE HORRIBLE EVENTS ARE NOT THE FAULT OF THE YOUNG MARINES WE SENT OVER THERE TO FIGHT, WE COULD MAKE CRIMINALS OF ALL VETS THEN. WHY DONT WE RETURN TO SPITTING ON THEM WHEN THEY RETURN, HYPOCRITES! YOU BACK THIS WAR, SEND YOUNG MEN OVER INTO HELL, AND THEN COMPLAIN WHEN A MISTAKE HAPPENS?! WHY DONT WE PROSECUTE ALL WW1, WW2, KOREA, VIETNAM, & IRAQ VETS, UNGRATEFUL AMERICANS! LEAVE THESE VETS ALONE, GOD KNOWS THEY WILL HAVE THERE OWN DEMONS TO WORK THROUGH AT THE COST OF OUR FREEDOM.

Pennington previously court-martialed? wrote on Nov 22, 2006 9:56 AM:Interesting, does anyone know when or why Pennington was previously court-martialed? According to the article: It also was revealed in court Tuesday that Pennington had previously been court-martialed and therefore had experience with the military justice system. The nature of the previous court-martial was not disclosed. Did Mark Walker get this correct?

Disgusted wrote on Nov 22, 2006 10:48 AM:This whole thing makes me sick. We take a 21 yr.,teach him to follow the orders of his superiors and when he does he is charged with murder. Have we learned nothing from past generations of soldiers? How many Vietnam vets do we still have wondering around so badly scared from their experiences that they can't even be a part of society?When are we going to stop doing this to our younger generation? Let the old men who take us into war go fight it. Leave our sons and daughters alone.

Tied of the Hero Worship wrote on Nov 22, 2006 10:57 AM:To Larry: Thank you for sharing your insight. There is no excuse for the behavior of these Marines and this Sailor. It's too bad they had to tarnish the military and the definition of what a true hero is, for they certainly arent' heros by any stretch of the imagination. I'm sure they are just waiting for the book and movie deals to pour in so they can keep this stain on America alive.

to Disgusted wrote on Nov 22, 2006 10:59 AM:People who support this guy make me sick. Breaking into a home and taking the time to kidnap and then kill is sick. And don't give me a load about never putting on a uniform or being in that situation.

Goatskull to USMC Iraq Vet wrote on Nov 22, 2006 11:09 AM:Mistake?? You're saying that taking the time to break into a home of someone that you know is not an enemy combatant, kidnap, then 8 people shooting him, then taking the time to make it look like he WAS an insurgent was an accident? If you think that's acceptable then maybe you deserve to get spit on too.

John1 to Observer and Larry wrote on Nov 22, 2006 11:16 AM:My son did not "sit for months" letting anyone do anything on their behalf. My son's lawyers worked diligently to protect JJ's rights and get the discovery from the prosecution, including statements made; this process took a long time. Realize that charges were not levied for 1 MONTH after the men were returned shackled and much significant discovery remained unpublished to the defense until just before the Article 32 hearings. This evolution set the stage for next steps and realistic, honest discourse (with revelation to family of what that discovery entailed- past atty-client privilege) on what was best courses of action to uphold legal deterrence, honor and honesty on what actions my son needed to take responsibility for.

John1 to Robert wrote on Nov 22, 2006 11:22 AM:It appears you are not a complete disciple of the Gandhi aphorism: "The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is an attribute of the strong". Jackson, Shumate and JJ have taken responsibility, accepted their punishment, which they now start, have shown their remorse and all you can do is kick them.

John1 to "Pennington was perviously court-martialed" wrote on Nov 22, 2006 11:24 AM:Yes, Pennington was previously court-martialed, but it was a personal matter unrelated to his previous combat tours. It is not germane to this court-martial.

Stop Shouting Please wrote on Nov 22, 2006 11:46 AM:Will the patriot who is ranting in capital letters cease and desist? Every innocent person we kill lowers the moral authority we used to command. How many innocent people have to die before we realize the means doesn't justify the ends? Can all this killing lead to an end of killing and create a solution? More killing begets more killing, especially in the Arab world - so we are just digging a deeper hole there. The hardest thing a soldier can do is disobey an immoral order from a superior officer.

Richard USMCR wrote on Nov 22, 2006 11:49 AM:If what I read is correct, this human being was shot only after he had be bound, gagged and dragged from his home. He had no chance and he had no justice. His wife and family are most certainly grieving. The United States has just possibly made a whole group of new enemies.

Fools wrote on Nov 22, 2006 12:07 PM:How foolish are we? Acting as policemen in a role that previous military action would warrant. And what is military action? Should we really be abiding by some convention when we have a war to win? Would the other side abide by any conventions, self regulated? What we have come to view war these days is incredible, with the view leaving us exposed to always and forever stalemated. I'll tell you this, before the current global conflict is over, there will be alot more "war like" actions and alot less convention following. One warhead in a dense city by a group or institution will change all of your minds in a hurry and at that point, are we really going to worry about rules of engagement. The rule of engagement will have been dropped in our laps, and the rules will be none. Alls fair in love and war, and therefore peace is highly desireable. Peace is not free and neither is freedom, therefore, we must wage war in ways that are victorious or forever surrender our freedoms and peace. The complaints against these young soldiers are a travesty and an outrage. If you don't want them to conduct war, then you should prepare to surrender your freedom. Live free or die!

Army Brat wrote on Nov 22, 2006 12:19 PM:They don't train them to execute bound victims in boot camp. They don't teach them this in infantry school. They tell them to question illeagal orders. Nobody was shooting at them when this happened so fog of war doesn't apply. Saddam deserves this treatment more than any insurgent yet he wasn't shot. All it would of taken was one nade in his rat hole. That isn't what we do. We are Americans and expect no we demand better than that from our troops. I am not comfortable with them getting such sort sentences and am appalled that they will be honnerably discharged. There is NOTHING honnerable about what they did.

Goatskull to John1 wrote on Nov 22, 2006 12:36 PM:So if someone kills a member of your family but then later shows remorse you'll just forgive like that?

AW4cryinoutloud wrote on Nov 22, 2006 12:43 PM:I'm totally fascinated by some of the comments. I can't believe they come from anyone who believes in justice or the so-called justice system. How can the trials have proven "any" thing?? People have made plea deals; which "prove nothing". Have you who make these comments not noticed that there are still three young men to be heard from? Yeah...Get out the rope. Find the tree. Don't wait till everyone has had his chance to a trial. And, just how fair do you think that will be? But, hey; that should make you happy. No chance for a fair, impartial, unbiased, objective, wait to hear ALL of the evidence from ALL of the witnesses (good luck) kind of trial. One of you said, "humans are blessed with very intelligent brains". Where the hell are they? I want to meet them!!!...Oh; maybe I found one>>> The Fellowship for Reconciliation? Sure; THAT will really help. Dude!! If a journalist from CNN can meet with Bin Laden, suck up to him, expect to shake his hand at the end of their meeting...only to be told, coldly, that if he (Bin Laden) ever sees him (the journalist) again he Will Kill him....I don't think all the civilizing influences of parents, teachers, church, and the Boy Scouts is going to get the job done. How anyone can have the gall to not give those who fight for our freedom the benefit of the doubt, at the very least, commands no respect, bears no honor, and puts a smile on the face of the enemy.

SFVet wrote on Nov 22, 2006 12:51 PM:Previous postings point out the obvious: That it is a crime to kill a an innocent civilian with premeditation even in a war zone. What no one has pointed out is that there have been close to 400,000 American troops who have served in Iraq and these 8 individuals are only the very few exceptions to the honor/courage and sacrifice of those soldiers/marines/airman/sailors who have served and are serving. It is a testament to the training/discipline and honor of the vast majority of our fighting men/women that this crime is an isolated incident amongst all the death/chaos over there and that is why it's in the paper. These 8 individuals disgraced their uniform and country by their criminal conduct. Don't you dare absolve them of their criminal conduct by blaming it on the war.

JamesR wrote on Nov 22, 2006 1:04 PM:I write this as someone who was in the military and speak from that perspective. We all make mistakes but in my mind this was not a mistake provided the information the media has provided. If you can beleive the media. That is all I have to go on plus my own experience. The marines in this case intentionally planned this activity - this was not done under the duress of fire, this was planned. It is very hard to have someone putting you and your teams life at jeopardy and not to hold a grudge but the problem is that in many instances the face of the enemy looks exactly like the face of the people you are trying to protect. My question is why are the senior enlisted men not being held to the fire. When I was in I was responsible for my teams actions ( the chain of command ) and it was expected that they would go through me to get to my team, I was responsible for my divisions actions.

To AW4's Rant wrote on Nov 22, 2006 1:08 PM:For the four who took a deal, the proof lies in their own admission of guilt. Shumate said, "I knew it was illegal." And he did it anyway.

Peter wrote on Nov 22, 2006 1:10 PM:To disgusted, what orders did they follow from their superiors? They discussed and planned a murder. They where not ordered to kill this unarmed man they discussed it.

Peter wrote on Nov 22, 2006 1:14 PM:To AW4, what do you mean plea deals "prove nothing"? The soldiers are admitting to what they did. Do you not believe what they admitted to? How can you say they are innocent when they say they aren’t? Sooner or later you’re going to have to accept it.

USMC (RETIRED) Rebutal wrote on Nov 22, 2006 1:17 PM:To an Observer please don't put words in my mouth. I did not say:"being scared with taking an inoccent life is enough punishment." The effectiveness of your arguement and position would be best served, if you learned how to read. As for punishment, the Courts- Martial, has taken care of the legalities, I believe GOD will finish what needs to be done. SEMPER FIDELIS

John1 to Goatskull wrote on Nov 22, 2006 1:18 PM: In thinking of a response to your reply to me, I am reminded of the example of the Amish families who forgave the milkman who shot and killed the young girls in the PA schoolhouse some weeks ago. For me personally, I do not know if I could be that forgiving, but the last 6 months have taught much to me. I hope that loss of a loved one due to violence is not a bridge I will ever have to cross. I thought about it a number of times during JJ's deployment, "what if he arrived home in a casket, killed in combat?" I wonder, do you grieve for our young men killed in combat, and do you feel the same anger at the insurgents that you feel towards my son?

Goatskull to John1 wrote on Nov 22, 2006 3:58 PM:Ofcourse I grieve for our young men (and women BTW) that have been killed in combat. My feelings about whats going on w/your son and the other 7 in this situation has nothing to do with how feel about the majority of troops out there. Read what SFVet posted here and that sums up my feelings 100%

The uniform wrote on Nov 22, 2006 4:17 PM:To SFVET RIGHT ON. Someone with some common sense...

AWgiveusabreak! wrote on Nov 22, 2006 4:26 PM:AW4 goes on trashing everyone and everything that she doesn't agree with. It gets old!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! She never discusses, never listens, never changes--just more and more of the same.

AW4cryinoutloud wrote on Nov 22, 2006 4:37 PM:To the 1:08PM post: Hi Harry. You're the only one who says I "rant". More personal crap. Am used to it. Have you never heard of the prosecutor saying to the accused..."You agree to-and- and you'll only get-time." I can't believe you're that naieve.

AW4cryinoutloud wrote on Nov 22, 2006 4:50 PM:To Peter: Read what I just posted to Harry. He posted to me at 1:08PM. I think he should change his terminology so I won't know it's him. Just in case...Prosecutors tell the accused or the accused's attorney what they want in return for whatever lesser sentence they will offer. You show me the "law" that says a plea deal is "only" an admission of guilt and nothing else but an admission of guilt. You prove to me that plea deals aren't offered to and accepted by the "innocent" who fear they're not believed and or fear paying for something they didn't do. The two of you keep going at this, SO; MAN-UP guys and prove it to this little "ranting" person!!Shouldn't be so difficult.

John1 to Goatskull wrote on Nov 22, 2006 5:07 PM:You asked me a question about forgiveness and in turn I asked if you also felt anger at the insurgents who kill our troops. You did not answer. Indeed many hundreds of thousands of Americans have served with honor in Iraq, although less than 10 pct are infantry. Several of the P8 served in combat multiple times in Iraq, most being wounded. Do you really believe that this tragedy is isolated? Then you are naive. Fallujah and Ramadi are replete with "incidents" that USMC chain of command stifled so as to not spoil the stories of heroism that coexisted. The ethos in front line grunts is a separate thing. Yet my son did a wrong thingand is being punished. No one will forget, but he will find forgiveness in the end.

Straw Man wrote on Nov 22, 2006 5:12 PM:"YOU BACK THIS WAR, SEND YOUNG MEN OVER INTO HELL, AND THEN COMPLAIN WHEN A MISTAKE HAPPENS?" I never backed this war; I never voted for Bush. Bring our children home.

AW4cryinoutloud wrote on Nov 22, 2006 5:19 PM:To the post at 4:26PM: Good grief. I just replied to Harry and Peter and up pops someone else who is about to have a nervous breakdown. Geeze. Breathe in through the nose and out through the mouth. Someone awhile back told me to lighten up. Said I was going to pop a blood vessel. So...This is me lightening up. Can't you tell? Is that you again Harry? Because the comment you make there, quote: "It gets old!!!!!!!!!" that's a Harry'ism! Also, the yelling and insulting remarks are Harry'isms too. Awhile back Harry, I told you I wasn't going to play the drama queen game any more. I still get bent; but that's different from using the "isms". I don't "trash" anyone. I stand up for what I believe and do it the same way many do. Some get bent and vent. (God! Now I'm a poet). I also get bent and vent. Deal with it. None of us are going to solve the world situation or anything else here. Heck; I was wrong about something a couple of articles back and someone "politely" pointed it out. I checked into it and found he was correct. I recanted and thanked him. I didn't even need a Valium. You have your own beliefs. If you want to change mine, then PROVE mine wrong and I'll recant.

To AW4 wrote on Nov 22, 2006 6:56 PM:I can certify that the use of the word "rant" to describe your postings didnt come from Harry.

Army Brat wrote on Nov 22, 2006 7:00 PM:To SFVet An exelent point well put. The only thing I would add is that we must publicly prosicute the tiny minority that tarnish the uniform. The thing that I am uncomfortable with is the number of people who blindly defend and rationalize these fundamentally evil actions.

MorallyRight1 wrote on Nov 22, 2006 7:49 PM:You know John 1, I think this particular blog is about Shumate and his legal proceedings. How come it gets turned around AGAIN to you and your son. Your son took a plea, when his hide was on the block, you no longer need to plead his case for him. Not one comment was made anywhere here about the family and the Lance Corporal and the impact this injustice has had on their families. Furthmore, what a chicken and very calculated move by the prosecution to not swear any of these damaging statements into play. For what use are they then, except for to further try this mess in the public's arena. I mean, if you are going to come clean, then come clean and go for the gusto. But come clean, take the bait, and then not have to answer for your alleged statements. Because they are for all intents and purposes then, just blarney. So again, I have to ask....what really is at the basis of these pleas except for personal savior? Nothing more. Are the prosecution and the turncoats afraid of being cross examined by the defense? Or is there something else afoot here I wonder???? And, my heart goes out to the Lance and to his family, for no solution here is a fair one, for all will suffer, irregardless, whether it be under the guise of Military justice system or from within.

to John 1 wrote on Nov 22, 2006 8:03 PM:That is exactly what your son did, as described by 'Observer', sit and let the attorneys and yourself, I might add, spout off at will. If he had done any 'soul searching' it should have been before he looked you in the eye and proclaimed his innocence. And you said it yourself, your attorneys worked 'diligently'. It was only after the realization came he might actually be charged, that your son decided to show 'honor and honesty'??? Come, come do you really expect anyone (with the exception of the witness hungry prosecution) to buy that, really? He got the deal of the century, as far as Military standards go, so you should just quietly go back to where ever it was that you came from. It is quite obvious that neither yourself or your son cares a whit about the foregoing legal proceedings for the remaining four, as your sons 'unsworn' testimony shows.

I support this Marine wrote on Nov 22, 2006 8:21 PM:Thanks Marine for doing your duty. No matter how mad it may have seemed. ou killed the enemy! Good job! your country and the cowards back here who never signed up will never understand. I am sikened by the so-called retired who act like they are outraged! Please. They either never served in combat and are admin pogues or forgot where they came from. Get of the stump and remember the dirty job no one wnats to do! These Marines did thier job, even when this self hating country they support attacks the. Signed Retired Marine!

John1 to MorallyRight1 wrote on Nov 22, 2006 8:26 PM:MR1- I do not understand your comment re: "prosecution to not swear any of these damaging statments into play"- to which statements do you refer? The statements made by JJ, Jerry and Tyler in their sentencing hearings? Those were not prosecution statements that would be cross examined by the defense. It would be vice versa, actually. You have not met Jerry or Tyler's families; I have, and their grief is my grief and I stand with them, but I can only speak for what my son has admitted. The kicking of these young men by both sides of the blog is both sad and unfair and I stand for Tyler and Jerry as much as JJ. You are right, though- no solution is a fair one, and the 4 remaining seniors will have a very rough go of things.

TP wrote on Nov 22, 2006 8:41 PM:To the comment 11/22 @7:28am: There still is an organization called Fellowship for Reconciliation. It's the oldest interfaith peace and justice group in the U.S. Although I am not a member, I have attended some of their events. And thank SFVET, for saying so well what I've been thinking.

Adam wrote on Nov 22, 2006 9:10 PM:There were 3,709 Iraqi civilians killed in October, why are we making such a big deal over 1 more. It is the military's job to go over there and kill people, so they made a mistake. This is not worth ruining these marines lives over.

John1 to "To John1 at 8:03" wrote on Nov 22, 2006 9:53 PM:You've got the time and story mixed. The P8 had charges proferred on June 21, about 1 month after they had been returned from Iraq and placed in shackled confinement. I come from North County, so I am "where I came from". I don't believe you will ever want to try or have the ability to understand the evolution of the legal case and the difficulty (that still applies to the 4 seniors in the squad) of obtaining prosecution discovery. Jerry, Tyler and JJ look up to the 4 seniors still, and I think them heroes for their previous service to the USMC, and what happened, what HAD to happen broke all their hearts in a way only perhaps "Retired Marine" as a grunt, can implicitly understand. The P8 were bonded together as a squad when they reached the Brig, and in the first days when I saw my son up until the plea. That bond of loyalty was only broken in favor of stepping up to individual responsibility once all the discovery applicable was reviewed and discussed and with a lot of work and harshness of realism only a father can communicate to a son. Jerry, Tyler and JJ are shattered young men, and must heal from their experiences while they are also punished for their mistakes.

AW4cryinoutloud wrote on Nov 22, 2006 10:41 PM:To the post at 6:56PM: 4cryinoutloud; you mean there's more than one of you who uses the word "rant" to try and get to me? Can't you be a little more original? No Big!! How come the ranting of those who agree with you doesn't bother you the way "my" ranting does? I sense a little bias. Either way the answer is the same. I'm done "ranting" now. OH, wait.... thank you; I just looked up the word "rant" in my dictionary and it also means "wild or uproarious merriment"; which, of course, is what you meant, right??? Thanks. AW4.

To Adam wrote on Nov 23, 2006 7:04 AM:Adam, I just read this same comment of yours in another story. You obviously haven't been following THIS story or even read it for that matter. This wasn't a "mistake". Four men have plead guilty to deliberately planning this murder. Please read the story before you start spamming comments.

TP wrote on Nov 23, 2006 9:33 AM:To AW4: Count me as another poster tired of your constant ranting and raving on these pages. Personal attacks, and lack of respect for anyone's opinion other than your own have become tiresome. Logical arguments contain facts, in this case dervived from the newstory and other comments. I hope you really are done.

Adam wrote on Nov 23, 2006 9:34 AM:I did not make a mistake, and I read the story. Why just today Saturday, another 150 civilians were killed in Iraq. What's one more? Do you think that any of this months 3900 dead civilians will enjoy democracy now? I feel it is wrong to charge these Marines with anything during time of war and armed conflict. I am Active Duty myself.

To Adam wrote on Nov 23, 2006 12:20 PM:Adam, I'm not sure where you are that it is Saturday. Here in the U.S. it's Thursday, 11/23. I didn't think your generic comment (generic because you posted it on more than on newstory) was a mistake. You referred to the Hamdania incident as a "mistake" in your 9:10 pm post. And, just so you know, the U.S. is at war WITH Iraq, we are at war IN Iraq. These are the very people we supposedly are there to help.

Adam wrote on Nov 23, 2006 2:18 PM:I did make a mistake after all. It is Thursday after all. The more we help the Iraqis the more they are dieing. Right now it stands at between 47,634 to 52,863 civilians killed in Iraq and today the count is up an extra 160. I don't know how much more we can help them. Anyways with the new Democratic majority I suspect we will cut and run soon. War makes people do strange things, I still support our troops and none of our Marines should have been charged with any crime.

AW4cryinoutloud wrote on Nov 23, 2006 7:00 PM:To TP: Gee; And I tried so hard to make friends here. I made lower case letters on the last part of the blog name. Guess 'that' didn't help. Then I actually tried making really short comments. Guess 'that' didn't help. If you're tired of my comments why don't you just NOT read them? The name of the blogger is posted before the comments. Dude; who are you trying to fool? I have given facts so many times that I about know them all by heart now. If you lack the intelligence to answer them with something to prove me, or them, wrong, that's not my problem. Just because your view of my comments isn't logical to you does not make you right or me wrong. When I say I have something factual I'll back it up, as I've done many times. As for your hoping that I'm really done. Please don't hold your breath. You'll need that oxygen for the next time you want to tell me I rant and rave.

To Adam wrote on Nov 23, 2006 11:55 PM:To Adam: Well, I made a mistake too. Of course I meant to write that we are NOT in a war with Iraq, but in Iraq. Thank you for overlooking the typo and knowing what I meant to write. I think we agree that the U.S. isn't helping the Iraqi people at all (although that is the spin.) Can we also agree that this illegal invasion has killed countless Iraqis? (Some sources have the Iraqi death count even higher than the one you quoted, the highest I've seen is almost 10x your numbers.) I think we agree that supporting U.S. troops is important and I assure you my support is strong. Where we disagree is that support for me is not unconditional. (See SFVET’s comment – I agree with everything in it and he/she says it so much better than I can.) Polls show the majority of Americans are now against the war in Iraq. I hope you are right about the Democrats.

Harry wrote on Nov 24, 2006 6:05 AM:Thanks TP, I went on line and looked up the Fellowship Of Reconciliation and even started my Xmas shopping in their "store". Their history and purpose is inspiring. They have truly worked for the alternatives to war over the last three generations. Their members have included, Einstein, Coretta Scott King, Titch Nat Han and many men and women of faith and courage. "There is no way to Peace, Peace is the way."

DefenderAllTheWay wrote on Nov 24, 2006 9:22 AM:to AW4- Amazing how these people want to keep bashing you. I totally understand what you are saying regarding the plea deals. If I were facing possible death or life in prison why not look at or accept a plea deal? Much sweeter than the alternative. For the ones remaining to face trial, I hope they walk. As much hell these soldiers have been thru in Iraq, with our government and havng to live with this for the rest of their lives seems like plenty enough punishment. Keep up the good work.

Adam wrote on Nov 24, 2006 11:00 AM:Our government saying that there is no Civil War in Iraq, can be compared to Kennedy and McCain saying that their Comprehensive Immigration Reform is not Amnesty. They are all liars! Another 5o civilians killed in Iraq today, and another 6,000 illegal Aliens snuck over our unguarded boreders again last night. We need to get our troops out of Iraq and put them on our Southern Border where they will do some good. And as of today it is still safer to be on U.S. Soil on our Southern Border. But not by much!

AW4cryinoutloud wrote on Nov 24, 2006 11:39 AM:To DEFENDERALLTHEWAY:Thanks. It doesn't bother me. It's just sadly eye-opening to realize that there are actually people in this country who don't give a toot about one's rights and whether or not those rights have been denied or abused. Their hearts are hardened. Don't think anybody can change that. I take their responses for what they're worth...Nothing!!!

Obvious to me wrote on Nov 25, 2006 8:21 AM:There is a real difference between civil rights and defense tactics and talking points.

to all wrote on Dec 1, 2006 11:07 AM:why do you care? Is it your Marine who sits in the brig? If not... why do you argue this case in such a rude manner. Criminals run loose in this country daily... mistakes are made daily. Watch who you judge because one day you will need the mercy of someone too. Go through the training, go through the war, but dont comment on any of it until you've seen the Corps. Train em hard... train em touch- give them mercy when they've had too much.

AW4cryinoutloud wrote on Dec 2, 2006 2:54 PM:To 'to all': WOW!! Well said. I felt that. You've got spirit. AW4.