Got it wrote on Feb 22, 2007 7:15 AM:Its clear to me, Hamandia was a conspiracy to murder one innocent civilian inorder to terrorize the locals; Hadithia was a killing rampage of undisciplined Marines following a fatal IED attack on their convoy. Hamandia was planned in advance, right down to the cover story, Hadithia erupted spontaneously, and then the cover up began.

John1 to Got It wrote on Feb 22, 2007 9:30 AM:No, you don't "got it".

AW4cryinoutloud wrote on Feb 22, 2007 11:05 AM:General Mattis must be sleeping through both cases: Hamdania and Haditha. IF, as Mr. Zaid commented, Article 32 hearings are used by the Prosecution AND Defense to outline their cases and "call witnesses"; Where are the so-called witnesses that NCIS and the Prosecution say have testified against the Pendleton Eight? IF the Article 32 hearing results in a recommendation as to whether an "accused" should be ordered to a court-martial, is it not important enough to have allowed the (presumed innocent)"accused" their right to face their accusers? That would be the Iraqi's; NOT the Marine Corps! The determination as to whether or not it goes to trial is made by the convening military authority (General Mattis). With all "due" respect; the General needs to wake up!. So far he's allowed the rights of these Marines to be ignored and now he allows attorneys from one case (Haditha) to make inflammatory statements against the "accused" in the other case (Hamdania). Not all of the Hamdania defendants have been heard and yet at every twist and turn their rights are trampled. Why is the Haditha case being heard before all of those in the Hamdania case have been heard? Their rights have been trampled on from the beginning when they were interrogated, confined, and put in shackles. Does this General not realize that not one piece of evidence to Prove anything has been allowed? Everything negative possible has been presented to the public WITHOUT any corroboration and WITHOUT any proof. Only statements by investigators who write "their version" of what they were supposedly told by the accused. Only statements "prepared" by interrogators for the coerced to sign in Iraq. Only statements made by Marines who were degraded, threatened and put in shackles; later "admitted" to be excessive punishment. Only statements made through plea deals brought about by months of being denied their rights, and being confined alone in one tiny room, knowing that their own were not going to be there for them. Only "statements"! NO PROOF BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT!!!!

Jim wrote on Feb 22, 2007 1:24 PM:The champion of "proof beyond a reasonable doubt" is equally quick to assume the victim in the Hamdania case was an insurgent, because "no one has proved that he wasnt" and to defame him and his family" The standards of proof don't cross international bordersf?

Proof? You Want Proof? wrote on Feb 22, 2007 1:56 PM:Let the trial take care of that. If convicted, will you then be satisfied that he's guilty "beyond a reasonable doubt". I doubt it. You've made it clear for some time you worship the military as if it were some kind of god, and think its members can do no wrong. If this guy is convicted, you'll be screaming and crying out loud: "unfair" to the rooftops.

Jay wrote on Feb 22, 2007 2:19 PM:Yeah, don't confuse the kidnapping and murder of an innocent (Awad) thrown in a hole, by the murder of innocents bound and ordered to "run" then shot in the back. Could be misconstrued as something cowardly and inhuman.

AW4cryinoutloud wrote on Feb 22, 2007 3:32 PM:To Jim and Proof?: Geeeze; I must apologize for wanting to follow the letter of the law and demand Proof Beyond a Reasonable Doubt! That is the law is it not? That is what is in the UCMJ is it not? That is the right every defendant, whether civilian or military, is supposed to have is it not? If you troop haters were on trial with the possibility of serving years in prison you'd be screaming and crying out loud "Somebody help me; I have rights and they're being denied me!" to the rooftops. Gee, go figure; where would I get the idea Awad might possibly be an insurgent? He lived in a "known" insurgent infested town where, if you were to keep up on the articles, you'd know the Pendleton 8 were sent to clean out. Awad was a corrupt cop under Saddam's REGIME. Have you heard of Awad "helping us" against insurgents? Specifically: the one next door to him; Gowad; the known insurgent we were trying to get? As for your "family man" routine; The guy made 11-14 babies. Give him a medal. That does not qualify him for sainthood. It does not make him a non-insurgent. If he was such a great guy then why didn't he help our Marines get Gowad? Make a phone call, send up a smoke signal. I'm not picky. As for "easily assuming" Awad an insurgent; why do you so easily assume that Awad is an innocent or that your own countrymen are guilty? You seem to have no problem with our Marines being defamed but can't wait to protect Awad. Why is that??? Please feel free to explain. As for the comment on what I think about the military; I never said members of the military could do no wrong. What I've said from the very beginning is that as Americans and as Marines I give them the benefit of the doubt and I want to have all accusations against these guys "proven" to me. Don't expect me to stand up for any Iraqi or any one of any foreign country over our own. Don't expect me to take it for granted that Awad was anything less than an insurgent. Don't expect me to believe the crap that came out of the mouths of the so-called witnesses. NOTHING can be confirmed. NOTHING has been PROVEN. I don't "worship" any human. If you ask me who my heroes are, then there you have it: The United States Military! Those who put themselves in harms way for us. If you don't like it; TOUGH!!! They're my HEROES and I'm damned proud of it. Deal with it!

John1 to Jim wrote on Feb 22, 2007 5:34 PM:Jim, while it may be that one can't assume Awad was an insurgent, one can't dismiss it, either. His brother Saleh Gowad is an insurgent, known as the Prince of Al-Anbar. But at this point, it's pretty moot. Awad is dead, and Gowad is living in hiding near the Green Zone in Baghdad. But Wuterich's lawyer needs to stick to his own case, that's for sure.

AW4cryinoutloud wrote on Feb 22, 2007 8:52 PM:To John1: Say that again. I thought I'd read before that Gowad was Awad's brother. Then I tried to find it again and couldn't. I found where he lived next door to Awad. Where the heck is it? I agree with you about Wuterich's attorney. This whole thing sucks. As a civilian I never realized the many ways the military denies protections to its own. To have all these hearings and inflammatory statements in other cases when everything from the Hamdania case hasn't been heard, is ludicrous. It's apparent that those in power aren't going for fair trials. They also apparently don't care who knows it because they surely can't think we're ALL so stupid as to believe this farce. AW4.

Disbelieving although I know what we are dealing with wrote on Feb 22, 2007 9:36 PM:Kill someone based one who their brother is???????????? Do you really believe that when the P89 MURDERED Awad, it was ok because of who his brother or who his neighbor was??? would you go and murder the brother of Scott Peterson???? That is sick and twisted! Did JJ have a brother, is he responsible for his brothers crimes, should he be killed? I can't believe you people!

John1 to AW4 wrote on Feb 22, 2007 9:41 PM:AW4: I know it's somewhere, but I am relying on the discovery and from my son. BTW, the WHOLE town of Hamdania is related to one another.

AW4cryinoutloud wrote on Feb 23, 2007 12:12 AM:To John1: Thanks. I'll go back and find it one of these days. I know what you mean about the whole town being related. It's like watching a bad movie on cloning.

to Disbelieving... wrote on Feb 23, 2007 12:38 AM:Whole town of Hamdania is related to one another and insurgents. You people who do all this judging...don't know how things are over there. The Insurgents take over a town like this...tell everyone in it to leave or be killed. And they do!! So...those remaining who live in the town are all insurgents or they don't live!! You need a lesson in Iraqi 101. Wanna go over there and check it out??? Maybe "Got It" would like to go with you. Take "Proof" and "Jim" along as your body guards. You might as well...you seem to be on their side! See if that will help you over there. Gaaadzz!

check it out wrote on Feb 23, 2007 12:51 AM:Check out the article titled "Insurgent Bomb Factory found in Baghdad." There is just a fraction of what these guys have to deal with EVERY DAY...while you all sit here blogging on your computers. Wow! Tough day you're havin', eh??

John1 to Disbelieving wrote on Feb 23, 2007 5:25 AM:You misunderstand the context of the reply to Jim above. My reply has nothing to do with what the P8 should or shouldn't have done. JJ would not have taken a plea had he not upon reflection believe that the squad had made a choice which was avoidable.

disbelieving wrote on Feb 23, 2007 10:24 AM:Thank you for the clarification John1, I think I understand now, but your phrasing or parsing would make a politician run for a dictionary

AW4cryinoutloud wrote on Feb 23, 2007 11:27 AM:To Disbelieving: I tried to reply to your 9:36PM comments yesterday: NO one said anything about killing someone based on who their brother is. I was asked how I could easily assume that Awad was an insurgent. I gave my reasons. The fact that Gowad was Awad's brother, living next door to each other gives me even more reason to assume he was an insurgent. Do you know what comes to mind when I hear that they were also neighbors? First reports from the Washington Post in June last year always stated that the so-called witnesses were family members and neighbors of Awad. Wouldn't it be ironic if one of those family members or neighbors was Gowad? Just a thought. Your questions referring to Scott Peterson were out of line. If you're going to accuse someone of saying something you might want to put their quote. It would at least give you "some" credibility. What is "the P89"? I must have missed something.AW4.

Disbelieving wrote on Feb 23, 2007 1:48 PM: If comments are "out of line" I trust NCT will handle it.

Disbelieving wrote on Feb 23, 2007 1:50 PM:"P89" was a typo for P8 or Pendleton 8, but then you knew that.

AW4cryinoutloud wrote on Feb 23, 2007 4:30 PM:To Disbelieving: See, there you go; misinterpreting what someone else says or thinks. I said your comment was out of line...not vulgar. It was ridiculous and insulting and unnecessary...and juvenile. As for P89; NO! After reading your misinterpretations and jibberish I wasn't sure what the heck P89 was. I figured only "you" would know for sure. I like the way you "didn't" answer my questions. There goes your credibility right down the tubes.

to 12:38 AM wrote on Feb 24, 2007 9:52 AM:So What!!!!There are little towns all across America where most everyone is kin by blood or marriage to everyone else. I lived and worked in such a town. By the way, the Iraqis aren't supposed to be the enemy.

To: to 12:38AM wrote on Feb 24, 2007 5:32 PM:Once again, you need the course in Iraqi 101...How can you compare the two. Did the small town here in America where eceryone is kin get that way by killing everyone around and taking it over. Did you kill someone to be able to take over that small town and use it as a base to kill anyone else (mostly our military, but not exclusively) who comes around? The insurgents there ARE the ENEMY to us and the Iraqis.

AW4cryinoutloud wrote on Feb 24, 2007 9:51 PM:To 'to 12:38AM': You didn't miss the point made at 12:38AM. You "ignored" it. One doesn't even need "any"thing 101 to understand the comments at 12:38AM. Geeeze! Awad was a "corrupt" cop under "SADDAM'S REGIME." You're ignoring that and focusing on an American town whose people have similar names by "whatever" means. What an insulting question to ask if our military killed anyone to take over a town and use it as a base. Where do you come up with ignorance like that? Yep; the Insurgents are the enemy. Have you not heard that our troops can't tell the difference? Did we not just lose several men who were killed by insurgents dressed as IRAQI policemen? Give me a break! If you want to do something constructive, protest the UCMJ; which does nothing to protect our troops. Protest the ROE's that hinder our troops. Demand that NCIS join the 21st Century and not coerce our troops and that they keep records of their interrogations and investigations so they can "prove" their accusations in a court of law. Have some compassion for guys who are put through a living hell day in and day out; never knowing for sure who the enemy is. Have some compassion for guys who go through it more than once or twice. Can you possibly have enough compassion for your own countrymen to try and imagine what strength it takes to live this way? Not to mention, being away from your own country and your own loved ones for months and months on end; wondering if you are going to make it back. NO!!! You apparently are incapable of it!!! If you think YOU can go over there and face the things these guys go through and the things they see every day...DO IT! I want to see how tough you are. I'll even Email you to see how it's going. If you've made any new "non-insurgent" friends. AW4!

to AW4 wrote on Feb 25, 2007 7:36 AM:Judge jury and executioner without a trial or even charges--you set a wonderful example of democracy and justice in action!!!!!!!A presumption of guilt and a refusal to even reconsider, in the face of facts.

Disbelieving wrote on Feb 25, 2007 7:45 AM:The above post [9:51PM] makes a compelling case for getting out of Iraq immediately. We are in someone else's civil war where we can't tell the difference between the two sides, except we know they both hate us and we hate all of them. We would like to help the ones who are on our side, but there don't seem to be any. The government we set up, at the cost of 3000 American lives, has MUCH more in common with Iran than with us. Not much of a rationale to send our youth over their to get killed in, and not much on which to base a stratagy or to set military goals. Who is the enemy, who are the allies? Bring them home NOW!

AW4cryinoutloud wrote on Feb 25, 2007 2:25 PM:To the post 'to AW4' at 7:36 AM: Do you have the right person? I'm not the one who has done any of those things you mention. I'm the one who gets chewed on because I've been demanding proof from the beginning. I'm the one chewed on for saying to wait until all of the dfendants have been heard and had their trials. I'm the one chewed on for saying they are all presumed innocent unless proven otherwise. I am NOT the one you are responding to. I don't know who the culprit is, but it is NOT ME! Check it out and let me know. AW4.

AW4cryinoutloud wrote on Feb 25, 2007 2:35 PM:To Disbelieving: There you go AGAIN. Can't answer a question but can give your opinion on getting out of Iraq. My opinions aren't on whether or not to get out of Iraq. If I had "my" way, we'd take a poll of every single person in the military to see what their opinion is. Not a poll of a few people and call it the majority. I'm behind the troops who; believe it or not, pretty much have to go where they're ordered. I don't like it but don't think the Secretary of Defense or the Pentagon are going to take my calls...do you? Forget I asked. You don't answer questions.

Disbelieving wrote on Feb 25, 2007 9:32 PM:We know George Bush is the "decider”; are you the "questioner"; it is presumptuous to think others have to humor your self importance. No answers from me.

To AW4 wrote on Feb 26, 2007 9:48 AM:Oh it’s you alright, who on the basis of an article in the Washington Post, and some ambiguous reports, have decided that Awad was an insurgent and that his death was justified.

AW4cryinoutloud wrote on Feb 26, 2007 1:49 PM:To Disbelieving: The difference between us is that I'll answer questions. You dance around and hope insults will cover up your inability to respond. Example: You ask if I am the "questioner"? It's starting to seem like it isn't it? If one got an answer, one wouldn't have to ask again. If anyone is presuming to attribute self importance to me, it's you. YOU are the one giving me the moniker of self importance. I could care less. I'm just one person who has loved this country for years, who believes in the presumption of innocence, who believes one (or 8 or infinity) has to be "PROVEN" guilty, who believes in giving an American the benefit of the doubt, who believes in giving our Marines the benefit of the doubt, and who will never take the word of anyone from another country over the word of our own. Until the last trial is finished I'll continue to defend these guys. Do I think it looks bad? Sure. Never said I didn't. BUT! Not everyone has been heard from. What's the matter. Are you afraid something will come out that might put a different light on the whole thing? That was a question. If you don't like what I say, then don't read it. YOU may PLEASE stop giving me the self importance moniker. I have a son of my own. If he were in the same situation I would pray that Americans would stand by him and, at the very least, wait to hear everything before they passed judgment. SOooo...When are you going to answer my questions? Let me answer that for you. You won't. You'll hide behind insults.

AW4cryinoutloud wrote on Feb 26, 2007 2:22 PM:To 'To AW4' at 9:48AM: Excuse me but, what reports have you been reading? Since you're blogging on this site you must be reading these articles. I read these, and also articles from a military site, also DOD, also Time, CNN, Fox., Newsweek. As for the Washington Post; they had their journalists interview the Iraqi's who brought the chargwes against the Marines. So did CNN. I have the transcripts from CNN's own site. So, if you want to call ALL of these people that their reports are ambiguous, then please tell me where you get your information!!! As for Awad; I never said I decided he was an insurgent. I said I don't take the word of his IRAQI friends and so-called family that he was an innocent. His brother was a "known" insurgent. Awad had been a corrupt cop under Saddam's Regime. I have said I want it PROVEN that he wasn't an insurgent. As for his death being justified? If he was an insurgent; I'm not losing any sleep over it.

Got It wrote on Feb 27, 2007 8:47 AM:After all is said and done, I am still not confused between the crimes committed in Haidthia and those committed in Hamdania. I believe that is what this story is about.