Pound the table. wrote on Apr 24, 2007 10:32 AM:ALLEGED! The defense attorneys can and will allege anything they can to shift attention from their clients. It is par for the course, but a desperate measure, obviously they don't have much of a defense. Treated like POW's? Did they attatch electrodes to their genitals, smear them with menstrual blood, force them to simulate sex with one another, drag them naked on a leash through their own urine and feces? I don't think so!

Veteran wrote on Apr 24, 2007 12:53 PM:To "POund the Table": You have an interesting point of view on how to handle POW's. Maybe you should join the CIA or KGB because you could never qualify to be an MP. Calm down - why are you so excited?

Troop Supporter wrote on Apr 24, 2007 1:08 PM:Thank you NCTimes for your ongoing coverage of the Haditha and Hamdania cases - Good job by the Thomas More Center and attorneys representing and working for freedom and justice for our Marines - I do not believe Pound the table speaks for the majority of Americans, who want these Marines to be found not guilty and who do respect our troops, their commitment and service to our country, unlike the vocal and anti-military Pound.

AW4cryinoutloud wrote on Apr 24, 2007 1:29 PM:To Pound the table: Well; Just when I thought I'd heard it all! To think that someone got ticked at me awhile back for using the word "hurl". Oh My! That was mild compared to your overly graphic remarks. Has it ever bothered you that the enemy has tortured and done much worse to many of our troops? What you ignore concerning OUR Marines and Coercion, is that we're talking about AMERICANS, OUR Countrymen, being persecuted by their own. Their own military using techniques of psychological torture. Therein lies the disgrace. The same has happened to our Hamdania Marines and; buckle up, because it will surely now happen to the Marines involved in the firefight in Afghanistan. Sad that you care more about the way the enemy is treated than the way OUR Marines are treated. Therein lies more disgrace!

Pound on pound on the table wrote on Apr 24, 2007 1:44 PM:Innocent until PROVEN guilty. I don't know enough about the case to venture an opinion one way or the other but I am willing to give them the benifit of the doubt. From the tone of pound on the table 's post he/she is ready to hang these men at sunrise tomorrow morning. Have we learned nothing from the Duke case? Have we learned nothing from the inocence project who have just freed the two hundreth person that was wrongly convicted? These men put their lives on the line to protect YOUR rights don't you think they deserve those same rights? I think they have earned those rights unlike pound on the table.

Marie wrote on Apr 24, 2007 1:53 PM:Having delt with NCIS in the past as a Marine Officer I find it very easy to believe that they have conducted themselves in a less than honorable way towards our service members - mainly Marines. They are difficult to trust, use very shady tactics and are untouchable. I probed into their dealings when a Marine of mine was constantly harrassed by NCIs - to the point of attempted suicide. I was consequently told told "the command had no authority" and I was to "mind my own business." I'm glad their dirty laundry is finally being aired.

Brother Of Pennington wrote on Apr 24, 2007 2:03 PM:To Pound the table, so are you saying that anything short of Abu Ghraib's treament of American Marines is okay? You're right the NCIS misdiscretions are alleged. Wanna know the reason why? Because the NCIS agents don't record either video or audio interrogations(unlike any other American law enforcement agency). Had they filmed, maybe we could be more definitive on what happened when these men were interrogated. I wonder why in your book the NCIS gets the benefit of the doubt, while the men defending our country do not. What is about NCIS's history that that puts them up on a pedestal higher than our fighting Marines. I'd like to understand your logic. My brother asked for a laywer, and was told by a well known NCIS agent, that "that would be the biggest mistake of your life." This same agent, said the exact same thing to another man being investigated(Walt Fitzpatrick), who requested a lawyer in his presence some twenty years back. I wonder "pound", if you were the man having your rights taking away, moments after you were ripped off the battlefield where you were protecting your country, if you might feel differently about the NCIS's missteps towards our heroes.

AW4cryinoutloud wrote on Apr 24, 2007 3:19 PM:To Pound on pound on the table: WOW! I wish every American would follow your example. Maybe the sound of all those voices like yours would drown out the ones who don't give them the benefit of the doubt and are so ready to persecute our Marines. Maybe then we wouldn't have this one-sided prosecution.

John1 to Pound on the Table wrote on Apr 24, 2007 4:07 PM:Hmmph. Well, you're quite an example of the benefits of the rule of law, aren't you? PS- Whoever said the Abu Ghraib detainees were POW's, BTW?

2ndltusmc wrote on Apr 24, 2007 4:27 PM:when your in a combat zone, shoot first and ask questions later or it could be you laying on the ground. Carry video cameras record everything you do, so when you are brought up to see the man, show him the video, make sure you save a copy and mail it home or lock it up, because they will say they never saw it. fight back and don't let them get the best of you.

AW4cryinoutloud wrote on Apr 24, 2007 5:16 PM:Lance Cpl.Pennington was given what Congressman Delahunt referred to as an "inconsistent" sentence since it was such a leap from the others. I'm sure Brother of Pennington understands the reason behind it. The ridiculous thing is that neither Pennington or any of the others should ever have been put in this predicament. His Commander in Iraq and NCIS' eagerness to take the word of Iraqi's was bad enough but, to deny them their rights is not only illegal, it's unforgiveable. 'Miranda' is applicable to the military system of justice; so for NCIS to deny the right to Presence of Counsel should result in charges against them. I was chewed out months ago and told that the military was accountable to 'we the people'. OK! Great! Then let's demand they actually be accountable for their illegal actions. Today the media reported that the military lied about the death of Pat Tillman. Tillman's brother and Jessica Lynch testified before Congress about lies of military leaders. There have been too many lies. One has caused the Tillman's additional stress and heartache. "UNPROVEN" accusations (Lies) against our Marines by Iraqi's, a seemingly pre-determined botched investigation and Coercive interrogations by NCIS have ruined the futures of honorable young Marines and brought financial ruin and heartache to their families. If the Brass of the Marine Corps or the Pentagon think they are saving face for some reason, they're doing a miserable job. The administration is so determined to win the hearts and minds of Iraqi's. Do they ever consider "keeping" the hearts and minds of the American people???

Franklin wrote on Apr 24, 2007 5:50 PM:The cops, whomever they are, are always accused of misconduct by the defense. Sometimes its true, sometimes its not. It's a defense tactic and worked in the OJ case. This is not surprising and I dont give it much credibility but we'll see.

Judith wrote on Apr 24, 2007 6:45 PM:We will see what John McCain will do.

sasebo wrote on Apr 24, 2007 6:59 PM:Investigative techniques won't change the facts of the case. These Marines will be judged by a jury of their peers. Military Courts Martials are extremely fair and no doubt they will be acquitted if they're innocent. As far as Marie's comments, shame on you for not contacting the DOD IG if you felt your Marine was being subjected to mistreatment. Of course NCIS can't be touched, how else would they do their job? Should they work for and answer to the Marines? If you don't think the Marines would do anything to save other Marines then you're ignorant. I doubt some young NCIS Agents forced a battle hardened Marine Colonel into saying something he didn't want to say. Please keep in perspective that the complaints are coming from the defendants defense attorneys. I'll put my trust in the Marines on the jury. All this other stuff is chaff.

Leo wrote on Apr 24, 2007 7:05 PM:So we think NCIS forced confessions and forced witnesses to lie? Listen, the accusations are made by the defense attorneys not by the witnesses. I'll wait for a jury of their peers (other Marines) to settle this during the courts martial. As far as Marie's comments about NCIS, shady, difficult to trust? Whats up with that? Command has no authority? Would Marine want the investigators to work for her? We'd never get the truth. Look at the Tillman shooting and all the coverup, I'd prefer to have an independent agency like NCIS do the investigation, let the jury sort out the truth.

MarineDad wrote on Apr 24, 2007 7:47 PM:"Jury of their peers"? give me a break. 205 potential "panel members" aka jurors in the real world and NOT ONE with any COMBAT EXPERIENCE or "trigger time" and you think that's fair????? Not where I come from it's not. A peer is someone who shares common streets, societies, lives, training and such. A combat warrior has NOTHING in common with one who has not seen what he's seen, done what he's done, lived what he's lived. The system is NOT FAIR. If it were, the "panel pool" would not be so rigged. PERIOD.

Fed-Up wrote on Apr 24, 2007 8:43 PM:I guess our soldiers need to start filling out paperwork (like California policmen) everytime they fire their weapon nowadays! How pathetic our country is. I'm ready to move to the Ukraine where my wife is from. This is not the country I grew up in any longer, and thank God we didn't have this crap in WWII or we would all be doing 'heil Hitler'! Stop voting for Dems and Repubs is all I know to do.

It takes a Colonel wrote on Apr 24, 2007 9:03 PM:What about the rest of them! nCIS is such a load! Bring back USMC CID

John1 to Leo wrote on Apr 24, 2007 9:17 PM:Leo, NCIS is not independent! It's an arm of the Secretary of the Navy, part of the Navy Department, and subject to the orders of the Theater and Expeditionary Force Commanders. THE INVESTIGATORS DO WORK FOR THE VERY SENIOR COMMANDERS!

John1 to FedUp wrote on Apr 24, 2007 9:18 PM:Our soldiers DO fill out paperwork every time they fire their weapons! When my son was a SAW gunner, he had to get his fire team leader to call the Btn CO for permission to fire!

burke wrote on Apr 25, 2007 5:21 AM:Listen people, I've had Ncis snooping around me and these guys are anything but fair in their work. They bully, badger, lie. and use force to get what they want. All are looking for something preconcived and they don't care about the truth. If Ncis says it, it's a lie or a twisted truth made to fit the agenda of some base hack looking for promotion or stars on his shoulders. Trust none of them.

Victor wrote on Apr 25, 2007 9:36 AM:Not sure what NCIS has to do with this, the investigators can't prefer charges those must be initiated by command. Also is the Army 2 star who just finished his investigation also lying, we need to see what happens in a trial. Marine CID is still operating, "it takes a Colonel is obviously an Army Colonel otherwise he'd know this. For John NCIS does not answer to theatre commanders or COCOMs, you're dead wrong, the agents were flown in from the US to follow-up.

Sam wrote on Apr 25, 2007 10:00 AM:Marine Dad How would you handle the situation?

Fedex wrote on Apr 25, 2007 10:03 AM:Brother of Pennington. I feel your pain and good luck to your brother; however, no federal law enforcement agencies videotape/audio tape interrogations. Local LE and state are the only ones.

Brother of Pennington wrote on Apr 25, 2007 11:23 AM:To Fedex, actually, the FBI is starting to ratchet up, at the very least, audio recording interrogations. A snippett from an article I found on the net states, "And to help in that effort, FBI agents will be urged to expand the audio recording of interviews with suspects." That took little effort to find that. I'm sure I can find more examples, and for other agencies like the ATF and CIA within minutes. Guess which government agency you won't find with any examples? Zip, zero, none. To Sam, I'm sure the Marine Dad would like to see the Marines get some fairness in these proceedings. My brother alone was denied a lawyer, and still questioned after his request, shackled and treated like a convicted killer before he was even charged, and the list goes on and on. Marine Dad speaks specifically to one issue, that being that the government has gone to great lengths to make sure, at least with the Pendleton Eight, that they won't be allowed a jury of their peers, and it's just par for the course. From the direct getgo, the government hasn't been interested in providing these men with a fair trial. It's been tilted from the start, and the men protecting my freedom and your freedom deserves better than that.

Fedex wrote on Apr 25, 2007 3:14 PM:Brother of Pennington. Numerous federal agencies are looking at the issue, but your comment that NCIS is the only agency not recording was wrong and is still wrong. The CIA is not a law enforcment agency, so not sure whats up with that comment. The recording issue isn't as simple as saying lets do it. Issues such as these are decided at the DON/DOJ level and not simply decided on by the agents in the field. Law enforcement doesn't provide attorneys, in the Navy, it's the Navy Legal Service Office NLSO. Once the suspect indicated he didn't want to talk to LE (lawyered up) his command (US Marines)should have provided counsel, NCIS was out of it. Additionally, NCIS collects witness statements and evidence, they can't make conclusions, those are made by the convening authority (US Marines) who have the authority to levy charges. In the Military NCIS could provide a ton of evidence to the convening authority and the convening authority could decide not to press charges, like a District Attorney.For all I know all of these Marines are innocent, but using the old OJ routine of going after the investigators is wrong now and was wrong then. I predict these Marines will be acquitted, your gripes should be with senior Marines who preferred the charges not the investigators. I'm a former cop and realize this comes with the territory.

AW4cryinoutloud wrote on Apr 25, 2007 3:54 PM:The quote by Brother of Pennington concerning the FBI states that ...."FBI agents will be urged to EXPAND the audio recording of interviews with suspects." According to that, Pennington's brother is correct. One can't "expand" something unless it's already in use. Fedex' comment doesn't hold up.

Terry wrote on Apr 25, 2007 4:21 PM:I can see the DEMOCRATS screaming if this was done to an enemy prisoner. In fact, I see it as these "INTERVIEWERS" BEING TOLD THEY'D GET BIG JOBS IF THEY COULD COWER THESE MARINES! In fact, this makes me so ashamed of our own government doing this to brave men and women who are fighting to keep our country from being taken over by a 'strange' religion! Yes, a religion where your kids and mine will wear burkas and head scarfs and will never allow our girls to be educated. We will no longer be allowed ham or pork and we will be told that we must pray 5 times a day. Go along with these "religious fiends" you may as well go out and buy your grandkids PRAYER RUGS NOW!

AW4cryinoutloud wrote on Apr 25, 2007 5:08 PM:To sasebo: There are many articles, military and News media, concerning the aniquated and extremely unfair and prejudicial military system of justice. A 2002' lengthy investigation by U.S. News & World Report revealed much criticism of unlawful command influence, manipulation of the process to convict an accused member, and said that the system heavily favors prosecutors and that trial by court-martial almost alway results in a guilty verdict. You have been mislead. As a result, critics said that the CODE has failed to embrace key procedural safeguards available in civilian courts. As for the reliability of NCIS, there are so many articles, many military, on the questionable practices of this organization. NCTimes has reported on several discrepancies. There's no way anyone who "really seeks justice" could ever consider NCIS reliable. Certainly not when it comes to having too much power over those who have none. You are misguided. The complaints have been coming from the defendants themselves from the beginning, and from their parents and loved ones. Now they are representd through those who defend them in court. A few months ago NCIS motto on its home page was, "Protecting the Protectors". After many articles and complaints they've revamped their home page. The phrase is no longer there. Odd isn't it? Even the three branches of our government are set up to provide checks and balances against abuse of power. There are protections for the accused against abuse of power but they've been ignored and trampled throughout these proceedings. You've been mislead!!!

Sasebo wrote on Apr 25, 2007 5:46 PM:Of course the defendants and their families are going to complain, I'd complain if my kid were up on charges., NCIS and other LE agencies collect the facts which are presented to the jury,If I were a defendant, I'd rather have Marines on my jury than civilians. All the statements etc, will have to be backed up in court by testimony. The statements were used in the Article 32 but can't be used in the GCM. I understand the frustration of folks and I support the Marines, I just get tire of folks bashing LE all the time with baseless statements like "There's no way anyone who "really seeks justice" could ever consider NCIS reliable

Sasebo wrote on Apr 25, 2007 5:49 PM:You knock NCIS but run them on google and I notice their cold case unit spent 10+ years investigating a case where a DOD policeman in Hawaii robbed and killed a young sailor. The US Attorney and FBI did nothing, two months ago a Hawaii State Jury convicted the guy (Torres) of murder. There's another one about a sailor who supposedly went AWOL after stealing payroll money, NCIS found the real crook after 20 years and exonerated the sailor. No credibility?

AW4cryinoutloud wrote on Apr 25, 2007 7:25 PM:To sasebo: NCIS doesn't have proof of anything. It has plea deal statements and is "creating" a crime from those plea deals, where there was none. Your so-called "facts" (admittedly "unconfirmed" or "unverified", take your pick) came from the mouths of Iraqi's and rush to judgment reporters and politicians. Has ANY one proven those Iraqi's weren't insurgents? NO! Apparently NCIS couldn't go to the trouble to investigate that. We ARE talking about Protecting the Protectors aren't we? We ARE talking about AMERICANS lives and futures aren't we? YES! NCIS got rid of their motto. That seems to be the only 'intelligent' thing they've done. WOW! Glad you told me that NCIS spent 10 whole years on one case and 20 whole years on another. Warms the heart doesn't it? Yet, when it involves the very LIVES of our Marines, and the possibility of their being put to death, NCIS takes "FIVE DAYS!!!!! You said it yourself, "NO CREDIBILITY"!!!!!

Sasebo wrote on Apr 25, 2007 8:41 PM:AW The Marines conducted their own preliminary inquiry and requested the investigation, NCIS didn't just show up and start cuffing people...Blame the Marines for collecting the initial facts which led them to the conclusion a criminal offense ..........occurred..unbelievable BAGHDAD, Iraq -- Lt. Gen. Peter Chiarelli, Multi-National Corps - Iraq Commanding General, directed further investigation into events surrounding an insurgent attack in Haditha, Iraq, Nov. 19, 2005. On that day, Marines assigned to the Marine Expeditionary Force responded to an IED and small-arms fire attack on their convoy. “There are allegations of potential misconduct, and they will be investigated,” said Lt. Gen. Chiarelli. Lt. Gen. Chiarelli initiated a preliminary investigation Feb. 14 when allegations of possible violations of the rules of engagement were brought to the attention of coalition officers. On March 9, Lt. Gen. Chiarelli was presented with the initial findings of that preliminary investigation. Based on the recommendation of the investigating officer, he directed further review of the incident.

Fedex wrote on Apr 25, 2007 8:44 PM:crying ol I read the article refered to by you and bro of Pennington. The FBI has no policy directing video or audio taping. Any recording must be requested by the Field Agent and approved by FBIHQ, which almost never happens as they can't delay most interrogations plus the Agents don't want to go through the hassle.

AW4cryinoutloud wrote on Apr 26, 2007 12:36 PM:To Sasebo: Show me where I said NCIS just showed up. At 5:16PM the 24th., the only reference I made was concerning Lance Cpl. Pennington. Please don't put "your" interpretations into my comments. I said, "His Commander in Iraq and NCIS' eagerness to take the word of Iraqi's..." Not that hard to understand. You say the Marines collected the initial facts which led them to the conclusion a criminal offense occurred. The Marines; which Marines would that be? The 'Marines' don't have the right and it's not their job to "CONCLUDE" anything. That is what NCIS took care of. Yes...UNBELIEVABLE! The rest of your comments are attempting to prove what? ALLEGATIONS of POSSIBLE violations were investigated and led to further review. SO??? Who argued about that? You left out the rest. The best part; More coerced interrogations by NCIS. Again...UNBELIEVABLE!!!

AW4cryinoutloud wrote on Apr 26, 2007 12:43 PM:To Fedex: I didn't say I read the article. I merely pointed out that the wording in the article as "quoted" by BoP, indicates there "was" recording of interviews. You don't "expand" on something that isn't there. If you say you expand on something, then it is in use. Blame the person who wrote the article; not BoP or Me!

Fedex wrote on Apr 26, 2007 4:09 PM:You quoted BoP, recommend you read it from the source before stating Fedex' comment doesn't hold up. " The article is there to read, but for some reason the truth and facts evade any of your arguments. Emotion, and baseless comments sum up all of your rantings.

Sasebo wrote on Apr 26, 2007 4:12 PM:AW just quoting the article which quotes a Marine General indicating they conducted a preliminary inquiry and then requested a formal investigation. I guess if a Marine General conducted a prelim, we could assume the Marines on his staff conducted it. Wow, can you back up anything you say with any facts?

Brother of Pennington wrote on Apr 26, 2007 4:51 PM:To Sasebo, and what sums up your comments? You believe the NCIS over our Marines? Is there any lengths you believe the NCIS should not have gone to break confessions out of the Marines they were interrogating? Would you be in favor of waterboarding our guys? Here's where your comments don't make sense. You give the NCIS all the credit in the world for being a fact-finding agency, just doing their job, while at the same time you don't give the men out protecting both you and my behind's the benefit of the doubt. Why? Why has NCIS earned such high regard from you? And as to your comments about a jury of their peers, don't make me laugh. Their was a questionaire sent out to the panel members for my brother's potential jury. The government made sure, I repeat, MADE SURE, that any of those people for the panel WOULD NOT have any battlefield service. Does that sound like jury of peers to you? And if the government was so interested in giving my brother and his brother's fair trial, why not allow members on the jury who do have battle experience? In this day and age, I'd think it'd be easier to find one than not. But the government wasn't, and hasn't been interested in fair trial for any of our guys. I can give a dozen more examples if you like, since I know you're eager for facts.

AW4cryinoutloud wrote on Apr 26, 2007 5:51 PM:To Fedex: You seem to have a fascinating ability to totally ignore what someone has said. I did not quote BoP. I quoted a quote from an article he read. An article that you say you read. So, tell me. You said you read the article. What is the title? What is the date it was written and who wrote it? Share please. Next time, pay attention to what a person says. Gosh you remind me of another blogger. The snide insults and "ranting" routine are so memorable.

AW4cryinoutloud wrote on Apr 26, 2007 6:11 PM:To Sasebo: What the bloody heck are you talking about? If I had an inkling, I'd answer. As for my backing up my comments with any facts, YES!!! Can You? Go for it!!!

Sasebo wrote on Apr 26, 2007 9:57 PM:BOP Bravery in battle, putting your life on the line etc doesn't mean they're telling the truth. Why would NCIS agents deny the guy legal counsel?? They don't get paid on commissions?? Doesn't make sense. Yep I believe the two NCIS agents who had nothing to gain over Pennington who had everything to lose. Your allegation even if it was true (that he wasn't offered a lawyer) means nothing as he pled guilty????A defense attorney couldn't erase the facts of the case. Sorry about your brother, but to claim a grand conspiracy to deny this kid a lawyer is ridiculous.

AW4cryinoutloud wrote on Apr 27, 2007 4:36 PM:To Sasebo: I posted earlier but don't see it. You asked why NCIS would deny the guy legal counsel. I can't speak for BoP, only for myself. It comes from a history of abuse of power beginning with a military whose every action is based on maintaining over 200 years of command structure. Regardless of whether the system is antiquated, or whether it persecutes the lower ranking members, that command structure will be protected. NCIS, under the Dept. of the Navy, has had unlimited, unchecked power for too long. Anyone who protests what they deem to be our government's abuses of unchecked power, should be able to understand that it also spreads to an organization with the same unlimited, unchecked power. Anyone who protested Abu Ghraib should be able to understand the fact of the potential for what I call, Man's Inhumanity to Man; the potential for anyone in a position of power to come to lose their soul to it, to the point they become abusive. They thrive on that power and will fight to keep it. Regardless of the circumstances in these cases, abuse of power has not only stifled the ability to find the truth. You can be upset with me but you can never be more upset than I, as a patriotic American am, to learn that those who fight for us could ever be sacrificed in order to maintain an antiquated system and to appease a foreign fledgling government. Our Marines made a "choice" to fight for this country. They knew the risks of battle and they "chose" to accept those risks. They did NOT "choose" to be used as sacrificial lambs or to be persecuted by their leaders. They'd have given their lives. They did NOT sign up to give their souls.