Mark wrote on Apr 27, 2007 4:10 AM:Violation of Church and State? Hello...

Larry wrote on Apr 27, 2007 5:35 AM:Can you say lawsuit?

Kari wrote on Apr 27, 2007 5:43 AM:Our country was established based on biblical principals! We've gotten so far away from what our founding fathers stood for. Of course this should be part of our schools, from the elementary level. We are giving our kids the wrong perspective from the beginning. Someone needs to read the Constitution and really be honest with themselves as to who actually wrote it! These were God-fearing men! Good for the Murrietta school district for taking a stand!!!!!!

separation of church and state wrote on Apr 27, 2007 7:04 AM:Wrong...Our country was founded on the premise that church and state remain separated. The constitution does not state "separation of church and state EXCEPT that it is OK to do things according to the Christian belief system". Individual religious beliefs do not belong in government or in our schools. Most of the world's violence can be attributed to religious beliefs -- the age old "my beliefs are right and yours are wrong" debate. I hope that this goes to the Supreme Court because i'm tired of this type of business going on. It is bad enough that churches can now hold their services in our schools on the weekend.

How about wrote on Apr 27, 2007 7:19 AM:Reading, Writing and Arithmetic. What the schools are graduating are useless, I can't use them. The schools are turning out taxi drivers and short order cooks.

Flood gates opened wrote on Apr 27, 2007 7:33 AM:Yesterday outside Warm Springs Middle School there were people handing out bibles to the students after school. They said they had permission to do so from the School District. Are they going to afford the same privileges to all faiths? It is only going to get worse with the approval of these courses.

P wrote on Apr 27, 2007 7:41 AM:Praise God! The Lord will truly bless this school. As far as "separation of Church and state", no such thing.

Ahhhh wrote on Apr 27, 2007 7:43 AM:Get over yourself, it's a book. What? You want to ban a book?

Murrieta Mom wrote on Apr 27, 2007 7:50 AM:It's an elective right? No kid HAS to take it. I'm not religious at all but if my kids want to study it, great! I'd rather they study religion than Spanish any day!

Ed wrote on Apr 27, 2007 7:50 AM:Why are people offended when someone chooses to learn about religion. The class is an elective not a graduation requirement. Besides what is wrong with treating people with love, having good thoughts, giving to charity, and numerous other values taught by ALL 5 of the religions examined in the class.

Enlightened wrote on Apr 27, 2007 7:53 AM:When I was at UCLA they had several classes like this one. Allowing students to research, exaomine, question, and discuss PERTINENT topics is called education not theocracy.

alice wrote on Apr 27, 2007 7:53 AM:Amen to what Kari wrote. And to all those who keep using the "separation of church and state" argument - no where, and I repeat, no where, in our constitution will you find those words. They were penned by Thomas Jefferson in a letter. His intent was that government not intrude into the affairs of the church which is a called out body of believers. The public schools have long been teaching humanism, which is a religion, evolution, which is a religion, new age and one world world ideals, and all the other major religions of the world. Christianity has been conspicuously left out in the cold. Cheers to the school board.

Matt wrote on Apr 27, 2007 8:03 AM:To Kari, are country was also established on slavery. Welcome to the 21st Century.

Read the Constitution wrote on Apr 27, 2007 8:05 AM:Amendment I: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof... I just searched the Constitution and no where does it say "separation of church and state". Sounds like something that lawyers came up with to attack religion because they were forced to go to church as a kid. Read the 1st amendment again; it also says, "Congress shall make no law". I don't see anything about a state or local government not to mention a school board. Last I checked, a school board can't make laws. Whether you like it or not, religion or some other belief system is part of our world history. Our ancient ancestors worshiped the earth and stars and it progressed from there. Why would we not teach or kids our entire history. We teach them about the WWII holocaust but some people don't "believe" it happened. Does that mean we should not teach it anymore or less than we should or should not teach kids our other beliefs? FYI; I don't even go to church or believe in any religion but it's my opinion that we should teach our entire history and literature, not just pick or choose based on politics.

Matt wrote on Apr 27, 2007 8:07 AM:Alice, are you kidding me? Humanism, evolution, and "one world world ideals" are by no means religions. And since when are schools (except maybe one or two exceptions)teaching "new age"? Get over yourself.

RWC wrote on Apr 27, 2007 8:09 AM:No place in our US Constitution does it state separation of church and state. It does state this in the communist constitution of USSR. If we are really going to be honest, why do we have the religions of humanism, evolution, sports, etc. being taught? Very hypocritical! Since the Bible and prayer have been outlawed in the public schools in the early 60's, STD have increaded 226%, violent crime has increased 995%, unwed births rates are up 325%, divorce rates are up 111%, etc. etc. etc. Seems morality has definitely taken a dive for the worse. Perhaps it time to reconsider the Bible has good advice for living.

John E wrote on Apr 27, 2007 8:11 AM:This country was founded on freedom of religion, which includes freedom from religion, but as long as we are talking about education and scholarly debate, I approve of this ELECTIVE course. Given today's world events, Americans would arguably benefit from a study of the Koran, as well. Better yet, offer a comprehensive comparative religions course, using Prof. Huston Smith's classic textbook, "The World's Religions." Anyone who doesn't care for the American concept of separation of church and state may want to contemplate life in Iran today or in Spain during the Middle Ages.

Mike wrote on Apr 27, 2007 8:13 AM:An answer to Mark's comments on "Violation of Church and State.” As long as all faiths are given equal consideration for classes, it is legal. I will bet the ACLU will not let this get by. Of course, if it were course on the devil, the ACLU would never be heard from.

History Lesson wrote on Apr 27, 2007 8:16 AM:Since the 1960's teenage pregnancies, violence, and drug use rates have all increased...Right around the same time prayer was removed from school. If you don't teach RIGHT & WRONG they won't learn RIGHT & WRONG.

Murrieta Resident wrote on Apr 27, 2007 8:18 AM:It's funny when this article first came out two days ago there were not this many comments posted, but now that it is on the first page, we get all this. How many of you are even in the district? How many of you were at the meeting to argue against these classes? ... Murrieta Residents made the decision to except these classes, end of dicussion.

Some of you are missing the point wrote on Apr 27, 2007 8:23 AM:This is not a step forward for the Christian Right to get bibles into our schools. This is an elective program that studies world relgions, including Christianity. If we had understood the Sunnis and the Shiites better we would not be in this mess in Iraq. I am a Wiccan so I do not support religion in our schools if only one religion is taught, but Comparative Religion is a fine study and I support this school boards decision.

To separation of church and state wrote on Apr 27, 2007 8:23 AM:The 1st amendment never mention separation of church and state, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances". There was a rumor going around in 1801 that the United States was going to established one true religion. Thomas Jefferson wrote a letter to several churches. In the letter he mention "wall of separation" Later the court (took that letter) ruled that religion should not be in any public places.

Questions??? wrote on Apr 27, 2007 8:27 AM:If, the government is going to ban religion in schools it should be for all religions. For example why a Muslim given rooms in schools during school hours to pray? Why are Jews excused on Yom Kippur? Why do children get several weeks off during Christmas?

Its a great class wrote on Apr 27, 2007 8:44 AM:I took the Bible as Lit class 25 years ago at a Santa Clarita H.S. Before you slam the course learn more from the instructor, and his/her view of how they will apply the syllabus. My instructor was great, there was no religous side to the class. NO preaching of views allowed!! We would read the book and have discussions, quizzes, and exams on the content of what we read. The bible was used as a book to read, not to hold a belief in it. I grew up in a conservative Catholic family, my classmates were Jewish, Mormon, Baptist, and local Christian Churches, and a exchange Kid from India. I believe the Teacher is still teaching the course and is Head Coach of the State D-1 Football Champions. He was fair but it was one of the toughest courses I EVER took throughout my education including college.

Euphoric Reality wrote on Apr 27, 2007 8:49 AM:To: 'separation of church and state' - You're very wrong with your secular kneejerk charge that most of the world's violence can be attributed to religious beliefs. Over the past century, atheists like Karl Marx, Vladimir Lenin, Josef Stalin, Adolf Hitler, Mao Zedung, Pol Pot and those father and son nut cases in North Korea have filled more mass graves, performed more mass executions and filled more concentration camps and gulags than in all previous history. 'The Black Book of Communism' conservatively calculates that communism alone is responsible for 100 million deaths through torture, genocide, starvation and repression. You should think a little more carefully before you throw around blanket accusations about religion. Atheism is a valueless system that ignores natural rights and God given liberties. That is why atheism is so embraced by genocidal tyrants.

Matt wrote on Apr 27, 2007 9:03 AM:To History Lesson, your pre-1960s utopia is nothing but a fantasy. Unless racism, lynchings, McCarthyism, poverty, the KKK, sexism, and all those "traditional values" are your sort of thing.

Knightwatch wrote on Apr 27, 2007 9:45 AM:Bible in public schools?! Boy O'oo boy, Democrats are gonna have a stroke!!

Get Real wrote on Apr 27, 2007 9:46 AM:I took a similar class in college and I didn't see that it preached religion. It was a history of different religions. Have "you" ever taken the class. That is what is wrong with this society so quick to judge and sue happy.

Ron wrote on Apr 27, 2007 9:48 AM:In furtherance to the education of exactly where this idea of "separation of church and state", one only need to back into history. In the first half of our country's history, the focus was on the "prohibiting the free exercise thereof" clause. Jefferson's letter was to make clear that the government would take no action, or role in promoting one Protestant sect, over another. It would remain "neutral." At that time, certain townships had employed sectarian taxes. Jefferson letter was to make clear this was strictly a local issue, and not one for the Federal government to decide. That all changed when anti-religious groups in the 1920's began to question again the government's role. In 1947, The phrase "separation of church and state" became a definitive part of "Establishment clause" in Everson v. Board of Education. The ACLU filed an Amicus brief on his behalf. (go figuire, since the ACLU at that time was filled with known communists) The 5-4 decision was handed down on February 10, 1947. The Court, through Justice Hugo Black wrote the majority decision. Black, a known anti-Catholic, and former member of the Robert E. Lee Klan No. 1, a branch of the Ku Klux Klan in Birmingham, Alabama. In essence Black and the others on the majority of the court's decision feared the influx of Catholic immigrants, and their ties to the Pope. We saw the same fear raise it's head during the election of JFK, and were still fighting it. With the humanists, the atheists, the secularists, all stating that any display of Christianity offends them, and thus violates the 1st Amendment, one has to ask. When will they get to your religion?

RCH wrote on Apr 27, 2007 9:56 AM:To Mark: You obviously don't know the Constitution or where the phrase originated. Thomas Jefferson wrote in a response to the Danbury Baptist association in Jan. 1801 to their letter stating they were affraid that the U.S. was going to designate a state religion. His letter stated that there is a wall of separation that would prevent that from happening. You see the phrase "Separation of church and state" was meant to keep government out of religion, not religion out of government. Over the years people have come to believe that it is in the Constitution, when it is not. You all talk about Christians needing to open their minds, to another point of view, but when the shoe is on the other foot you all cry "Lawsuit" or "Unfair". In case none of you know this, this country was founded by Christians fleeing the tyrany of Europe. The "New England Primer" was the book that was used to teach children to read from the 1600's to the early 1900's. It taught reading by using Bible verses. People need to study history for themselves and not just react with the "Programmed" response. Use your brain investigate for yourself.

To Euphoric Reality wrote on Apr 27, 2007 10:00 AM:Hitler was a Christian, he publicly stated this several times. And Karl Marx never killed anyone. If his philosophy was misinterpreted that's not his problem, but the problem of those who misinterpreted it. Christians,atheists, Muslims, Hindus, Jews, and even Buddhists have all committed atrocities. Your bias is blinding you.

o2cool1 to KARI wrote on Apr 27, 2007 10:08 AM:Perhaps you should become more familiar with exactly what the founding fathers believed or more precisely what they DID NOT BELIEVE. Thomas Jefferson,one of the most prominent founding fathers,did not believe Jesus to be the son of God.In fact Jefferson spent a great deal of time editing the bible,especially the new testament, extracting "DIAMONDS FROM DUNG HILLS".I would suggest you pick-up a copy of the Jefferson Bible, the same one that was given to every member of both houses a few years ago.

TEaching the Bible is Great wrote on Apr 27, 2007 10:09 AM:It will reveal to our children how utterly ridiculous the fairy tales in the bible are. Earth created in 6 days, earth is only 6000 years old. And mumble jumble about people rising fromt he dead. PLEEEEEEZ, let our kids know that this is nonsense. Next we should expose the nonsense in the Koran

Greg in Oceanside wrote on Apr 27, 2007 10:18 AM:The study of religion is good, but to put any christian spin on it is wrong. And, hopefully this isn't going to be a "back-door" way of teaching creationism and trying to subdue the teachings of science and evolution.

To Matt: wrote on Apr 27, 2007 10:28 AM:Jesus speaks for himself; those racists spoke for "tradition" and their own sense of self worth, not Him and his Gospel.

Not an atheist wrote on Apr 27, 2007 10:37 AM:This valley is full of churches and places to practice your religion of choice. It is not necessary for the schools to teach religion. As a parent it is your right and duty to teach your children about religion. Let me ask you this? If your child takes the course and your family is currently of Christian faith and he/she decides to practice Judaism, or Buddhism, or any other faith are you going to be supportive of their choice? Probably not and you will then blame the school district for teaching your child the wrong things.

To the post at 10:00 wrote on Apr 27, 2007 10:40 AM:You should read Karl Marx a little more carefully. Read about what he said against anyone who disagrees with the government (“rebels” should be dealt with). Everyone who as read and developed their government after Marx has killed millions of people. I wonder does everyone who reads Marx wrong or was it Marx's ideology. Marx was full of himself he wanted power. What would Marx do to a person of faith?

It's about time wrote on Apr 27, 2007 10:43 AM:the schools give the children the chance to hear something more than just this Darwinism evolutionary nonsense. To: Teaching the bible is Great, those were the only words of your post that werent utterly ridiculous. For years our children have been being taught they came from an ape or a fish, or a big bang, now THATS ridiculous. If you dont want the bible or other religions being taught in school, thats fine, just get your ridiculous evolutionary theories out of there too, because I dont want to hear it.

mm bibles wrote on Apr 27, 2007 10:49 AM:warm toasterz! philipians 5:eleventeen says "yea, though i walk to school on the uneven road of salami goulash, everybody dance now!" amen.

An Atheist wrote on Apr 27, 2007 10:56 AM:No problem. It is a literature course, after-all. And, there are loads of people in this world who read the Bible, but hardly practice it's religious doctorine. Paint a thousand pictures, are you an artist? Write a thousand poems, are you a poet. Read the Bible, are you a Christian? The answer is a resounding NO to each.

True History wrote on Apr 27, 2007 11:00 AM:One of the Founding Fathers, Patrick Henry, put it this way: “It cannot be emphasized too often or too strongly that this nation was founded not by religionists but by Christians, not on religion but the Gospel of Jesus Christ. It is for this very reason that people of other faiths have been afforded prosperity, asylum, and freedom of worship.”

To teaching the bible wrote on Apr 27, 2007 11:02 AM:Explain to me why is 50% of science they teach in class is false. You should read the bible a little more a day is to a thousand has a thousand is to a day when it comes to God. You said it is "mumble jumble" for someone to be raised from the dead. Let me ask you a question so you believe we came from nothing (an explosion and then there was life)! Show me scientific evidence about evolution (it is a theory). Did you know that Charles Darwin said he made it up!

To those who say wrote on Apr 27, 2007 11:09 AM:religion teaches right from wrong. I went to catholic elementary and catholic high school and we were the worst students, worse than public schools. We were violent, had the most fights after school, slashed tires on teachers cars, drank, had sex, etc. Matter of fact, I was a teen parent. Also, there was so much racism at the catholic high school I attended. We were the first large black class of freshmen (from a catholic elementary school) and the white kids hated us. So much for christian love for one's brother/sister. So that argument is a crock. Matter of fact after so much religion, I became a Wiccan and finally atheist. I'm much better, happier, more peaceful person after choosing not to believe. I support wholeheartedly the Separation of Church and State. Church has no business in issues of State. To those who say the founders were christian, read up a bit more on them. They were Deists, not Theocratic or Monotheistic. Learn before you post, and speak the truth. Don't lie to further your agendas. Your god doesn't like lies and liars.

RCH wrote on Apr 27, 2007 11:14 AM:to: Not an atheist wrote on April 27, 2007 10:37 AM:" One thing you conveniently fail to mention is that the "religion" of evolution is being taught in schools now. The children aren't told that it's a THEORY and it has more holes in it than swiss cheese, they are taught it as fact. To; To Euphoric Reality wrote on April 27, 2007 10:00 AM: If you check your history it was the Christians that were being bundled in animal skins and thrown into the arena for the lions to eat, for the amusement of YOUR ancestors. Just because someone says they believe doesn't make it true, what we believe is spoken through our actions not our words. Hitler and Marx were no more Christian than Ceasar Nero who used Christians as torches to light his garden as he rode through it naked.

aetheist says wrote on Apr 27, 2007 11:15 AM:You can tell from some of the blogs here why religion must be kept out of education. Right wing religious types have no ability to think critically especially about science. Having said that, I think studying the bible and other religions is a great idea. Bible references are used throughout literature and some books can not be understood without some knowledge of the bible. Comparative religions courses might be a little harder for the religious right to handle. After all the kids will learn that other religions that have nothing to do with jesus are just as true as christianity. Kids who've been raised in the closed minded evangelical community might be surprised to learn that people raised without christ in their lives still can live moral lives and believe that they too can ascend to heaven when they die. They'll also learn that there are over 9000 creation myths any one of which makes as much sense as genesis. So all in all I congratulate the school board for adding these classes.

Yousef wrote on Apr 27, 2007 11:20 AM:I want a comprehensive course on the tenets and merits of Islam to be mandatory for out youth. The crusaders always seem to hold a monopoly on thought in the United States. I believe in religious freedom and that must include equal time and consideration for all faiths. Praise Allah

religious statistics wrote on Apr 27, 2007 11:25 AM:Before you religious types start throwing statistics around how about this. If you go county by county in the United States the more religious a county is the higher the drug use, the higher the unwed pregnancy rates, the higher the incarceration rates, the higher the crime rate, the higher the divorce rate, the higher the murder rate. In fact all detrimental social statistics are higher in religious counties and lower in less religious counties. And, strangly enough they are the lowest in the most secular counties. The state of Mass. which has legalized gay marriage has the lowest divorce rate of any state. I guess you would have to agree that those secular liberals are more moral than the religious right.

To Yousef wrote on Apr 27, 2007 11:42 AM:I agree all religion should have equal time. One question when you say "crusaders" are you talking about all christians. If, that is the case than the Islam faith must all be consider crusaders. Look at the middle east when they expelled the Jews, Christian and anyone who does not believe in Allah.

Hot buttons and straw men wrote on Apr 27, 2007 11:52 AM:This class is teaching the Bible as history and literature, not as religion. There is absolutely no doubt that the Bible is a very important historical text which has influenced many authors and many world leaders (for good or bad). Pretending this doesn't exist just because it also happens to be a holy text for Christianity is intellectually ignorant. We should probably also study the Koran as well in schools nowadays in order to understand the world climate.

Who has taken a similar class wrote on Apr 27, 2007 12:16 PM:and knows what this story is about? I never read it was going to "preach" religion?

NCLOCAL wrote on Apr 27, 2007 12:22 PM:Are you kidding me. I see all this separation talk. Look at your money, your Supreme Court Building, the personal lives which led to the statements made by the forfathers and tell me about separation. Without God your country would not exist and that has nothing to do with studying lterature. The Bible will be studied, not preached. Understand what you read before you comment, maybe you need a course in the Temecula Valley district.

NCLOCAL wrote on Apr 27, 2007 12:29 PM:Hey Yousef , World Religion, didn't you read that in the article? Learn that on your own if your "so" interested in it.

Yousef is onto something... wrote on Apr 27, 2007 12:32 PM:In an effort to "understand" Muslims and Islam, public-school students are pretending to be Muslims, wearing robes, simulating jihads and memorizing verses from the Koran in a seventh-grade California classrooms. Parents of these seventh-graders across the state report similar experiences beginning in 1994. Parents of many students at Excelsior School in Byron, Calif., were outraged teachers at Excelsior would promote Ismlamic teachings said: "We can't even mention the name of Jesus in the public schools, but ... they teach Islam as the true religion, and students are taught about Islam and how to pray to Allah." It's already happening.....

RCH wrote on Apr 27, 2007 12:33 PM:TO: aetheist says wrote on April 27, 2007 11:15 AM: Here's a critical thought for you. Where do we get the standard for what is right and what is wrong? If it is subjective, then we can each decide for ourselves, but what I say is right, you may say is wrong. there has to be an objective standard. Since men are basically selfish and prideful the standard cannot come from man. You MIGHT respond that man is basically good, so it is possible for man to set the standard. My next question would be, if man is basically good, what do you use to start your car, or open the door to your house? A key, right? so if man is basically good why do we have to lock everything up so it doesn't get stolen? And why are our prisons overflowing? Then we can get into how people are so rude when they get behind the wheel of a car. So obviously man cannot set the standard. So critically think over that. people who think they can get to Heaven on their own good works will be disappointed, because they are telling Jesus that when He died on the cross it wasn't good enough. They are telling him, "I'll do it my self". But Jesus said, "No man comes to the Father but by me". You can get angry and argue all you want, but I didn't say it, Jesus did.

Religion wrote on Apr 27, 2007 1:03 PM:does NOT belong in the schools. Religious beliefs are personal and should remain in the churches and at home. Whether or not a class is just teaching what the beliefs of different religions and how they affect society and personal lives, a teacher will ALWAYS have a biased opinion! This is just NOT right!

Too Bad wrote on Apr 27, 2007 1:16 PM:Unfortunately most of you are happy they are teaching these courses. However the only ones that will be taking them are probably the kids that need it the least. They already have a background in religion from there families and will take it thinking it will be easy. The schools need to teach the kids about reading, writing and arithmetic. Too many can hardly read or write, and try getting correct change back at the local fast food restaurant even when the register tells them how much to give you. If kids are really interested in other religions let them look it up on the internet insted of spending all their time on My Space talking to friends.

Concerned-1 wrote on Apr 27, 2007 1:50 PM:I may be wrong, but I believe this whole idea started when a person from the religious right was elected to the school board. As I read it, he may be in for a surprise. The study of all religions may be extremely enlightening for students raised with blinders on. Should be interesting.

John wrote on Apr 27, 2007 2:16 PM:Teach the Bible in public schools? Good idea! Make sure to pay special attention to the despicable violence in the Old Testament. You know, the part where God wipes out every living thing on earth, including innocent babies and puppies during the flood (which never happened, by the way); or how about when God commands that a child be executed if the child curses the parent (exodus 21:15)? I am sure all of you follow this rule! There are so many examples of sick commands given in the Old Testament that it could, and does, fill an entire book. And this is where we should derive our moral standards? To those of you who think evolution is a religion and is only a *theory*, I suggest you do some real research on the subject. A *theory* in the scientific sense is not a hunch, and should not be confused with a hypothesis. From the American Heritage Dictionary: Theory - A set of statements or principles devised to explain a group of facts or phenomena, especially one that has been repeatedly tested or is widely accepted and can be used to make predictions about natural phenomena. The theory of evolution is one of the crowning achievements in science, and is overwhelmingly accepted by the scientific community. Read the last part of that sentence again: it is OVERWHELMINGLY accepted by the scientific community. Evolution is both a fact: it happened, is happening, and as long as there is life will continue to happen, and a theory: there is a set of statements to explain the phenomenon. Further, evolution cannot speak to morality any more than germ theory or gravitational theory can. Of course, gravity and germs are just theories, so maybe they don’t exist either. Welcome to Kansas, Murrieta!

Koran wrote on Apr 27, 2007 3:01 PM:What if someone was handing out the Koran? Would you all be so receptive to that? What about a book on the Wiccan faith? Of course not. Hopefully this religious studies class is taught by someone who allows open discussion on all faiths not just the christian one.

Good Choice wrote on Apr 27, 2007 3:02 PM:Thank you Murrieta School Board! There are good and bad in EVERYTHING! God will smile on you!

Oh... wrote on Apr 27, 2007 3:22 PM:Concerned-1, your not saying school boards should have a religious "test" prior to election? Are you? Sound like MoveOn and the extremist left citing reason for Samuel Alito not being qualified to the Supreme Court because he was.... god forbid... a Catholic? oh really..... a Catholic scares you? and not a Wahabbist?

Mike wrote on Apr 27, 2007 3:29 PM:Thank you M.U.S.D.! This makes me even happier that my daughter attends school in Murrieta. But reading through the comments makes me think that so many people are misinformed. First, yes the U.S. WAS founded on Christian beliefs, more specifically Anabaptist doctrine. Take a close, honest look at the Doctrine of Anabaptists and you will see just how closely that doctrine mirrors the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. Second, well I won't even go into the whole "Speration of Church & State" retoric, as several others have done a good job of pointing out that that is in fact nowhere to be found in the Constitution. Third, religion has been in our schools for many, many decades in the form of "Evolution". While not in the strict dictionary definition of the word, it is a belief system, not fact. Actually there is no viable evidence for macro-evolution (which is really what evolutionists are teaching, the idea that one species can change into another), not to be confused with micro-evolution (subtle variations and adaptations within a species). Fourth, it amazes me how out of all of the world's religions and belief systems, Christianity is consistently and primarily the one attacked, in spite of all that Christian beliefs have done for the world as a whole. Fifth, yes, Hitler did claim to be a Christian, but if I were to claim to be a hamburger that wouldn't make me one. Hitler's actions clearly demonstrated that he was NOT a follower of Christ, nor of His teachings. Judge Christianity based on the teachings of Christ, not on the actions of those who claim to be Christians. Would you judge hamburgers based on the actions of a person who claimed to be a hamburger? To: John, evolution is in actuality a hypothesis if you want to use dictionary definitions. *I* have done research, I have evaluated the so-called evidence and found it to be sadly lacking. The American Heritage Dictionary is, in point of fact, wrong, evolution is NOT overwhelmingly accepted by the scientific community, in fact many of the greatest scientific minds are abandoning evolution because the facts do not support it. We could spend hours discussing this issue, I wouldn't mind at all. As for the statements concerning what happened in the Old Testament, instead of espousing what others have said in the past, I encourage you to actually take your own advice and do some real research. Be fair, be open-minded, be balanced. I did, and I drew my own conclusions based on my own research. You should too.

to Rch wrote on Apr 27, 2007 3:29 PM:Your blog illustrates what I meant by persons of the religious right not being able to think critically. Every society has moral norms. Almost all were developed without the bible. Almost all were developed long before christianity came on the scene. If you feel there is a heaven and that you need jesus to get in, that's fine with me. Just be aware that other religious people feel just as strongly as you that you are wrong. I suggest you take a look at the comparative religion text book they will be using. When you read it try to think critically with an open mind. There are over 9000 religions in the world each has something to contribute to the moral dialogue.

ACLU, AU ALERT wrote on Apr 27, 2007 3:31 PM:Well said John! Concise and cogent. Many years ago I took a course at UCLA in Comparative Religion which was part of the social anthropolgy curricula. That was a graduate level course. I fear that teaching the Bible at the high school level is an attempt to religiously indoctrinate young people rather than educate them and that the Survey of Religions course is a sugar coating to make the Bible course pallatable. It's a strategy. I will certainly notify both the ACLU and Americans United for Separation of Church and State of this attempt by yet another school board to pander to certain religious constituencies. This needs to be tested in court.

evolution wrote on Apr 27, 2007 3:34 PM:The blogs that discuss evolution as a religion show very clearly why religion must be kept out of the science class room. But lets say evolution turns out to be wrong. Why is the default position the bible? Why not the Navajo creation myth? Or any one of thousands of other myths. The bible is an interesting historical novel but hardly the only religious book worth reading. the students who take Comparative Religions may find a religion that is more to their suiting. Or they may see that it's all just myths and magic.

the founding fathers wrote on Apr 27, 2007 3:44 PM:the founding fathers felt about religion as marx did, it's a handy way of keeping people in line. the founding fathers did not trust the common man to be able to manage himself thus they restricted access to government to only those who were property owners. they say again and again that religion was necessary to keep the people in line. the very same thing that marx said. they were, for the most part, too well educated to believe everything in the bible. they understood most of it is myth. many of them did not believe that jesus was anyhthing more than a preacher.

LP wrote on Apr 27, 2007 3:44 PM:Its an elective so get over it. Nobody is shoving religion down on these kids. The Murrieta School Board has taken a step forward to deliver Gods word for kids that want it. Its all good.

John wrote on Apr 27, 2007 3:52 PM:I must correct my citation from the American Heritage Dictionary: 'Theory - A set of statements or principles devised to explain a group of facts or phenomena, especially one that has been repeatedly tested or is widely accepted and can be used to make predictions about natural phenomena.' I used a paragraph break to elaborate further on the scientific consensus regarding evolution, which didn't carry through on the original post; everyting after 'phenomena' is my wording, not from the dictionary.

Murrieta Mom wrote on Apr 27, 2007 3:59 PM:IT'S AN ELECTIVE! Let me type it a few times ELECTIVE ELECTIVE ELECTIVE ELECTIVE ELECTIVE!! Personally, I don't want my kids taking Spanish - not an ELECTIVE. If the kids are interested and the parents approve, why not? If kids at 16 take it without parent approval, sadly, you've already failed as a parent. Now, let's get Spanish to be an elective and it's all good!

ACLU, AU ALERT wrote on Apr 27, 2007 4:06 PM:I have now notified both the ACLU and Americans United for Separation of Church and State of this decision by the Murrieta Valley Unified School District Board. I will be watching to see what action they may take. I am a member of the ACLU.

John wrote on Apr 27, 2007 4:27 PM:Mike: I encourage you to do some real research on evolution. Please don't obtain your facts from Aig, The Discovery Institute or other creationist websites. There are plenty of resources to explain what evolution actually is, and also what it isn't. Many people have serious misconceptions about even the basic principles of evolution. Much of this is due to deliberate obfuscation of the facts by creationists. And I am not espousing what others have said about the Old Testament. My statements are based on actually reading it. I think a course in comparative religion is acceptable, as long as it examines a wide range of religions provides equal time for each. However, you and I both know that this isn't going to happen.

Marie wrote on Apr 27, 2007 4:35 PM:Kudos to the Murrieta School District! They deserve it, for being brave enough and historically and intellectually honest enough to present the Bible as a historical text to be studied in conjunction with other authors and examining their use of the Bible in their writings. Besides, has anyone thought this may help decrease the instances of school shootings across the country, a fear of God, especially for teenagers, is not a bad thing.

BE FAIR wrote on Apr 27, 2007 4:36 PM:I don't call people derogatory names with whom I disagree. One can disagree without being disagreable. Having said that, I must say that I sincerely believe that "Mike" and others of similar view are religious zealots whose pedantry and lack of logic are painfully obvious. All of these excercises in argumentation pro and con really don't matter, ultimately. What will matter is the outcome of #1) Lawsuits to seek injunctive relief from this odious school board decision (as ACLU, AU ALERT has indicated) AND/OR #2) The reversal of the decision by the board upon mature reconsideration and with the valid protests of the district voters in focus.

Adamant wrote on Apr 27, 2007 4:41 PM:To: teaching the bible is great: you seem to know exactly what happened. Maybe you should be teaching these bible courses. I would like to see the proof about how you think these are all fairy tales my feeble minded friend.

Adamant wrote on Apr 27, 2007 4:44 PM:To: ACLU, AU ALERT: You can contact them all you want. The aclu won't be able to change the decision.

Concerned-1 wrote on Apr 27, 2007 4:52 PM:To Oh: Not sure I get where you're coming from but I suspect you are from the religious right. My post was that people from that segment may be surprised when the Bible, Christianity, and other religions are reviewed in an educational environment. In other words, your children's minds may be opened to new and different ways of thinking. Not necessarily a good thing for you, but keep handing out those Bibles and passing the collection plates. You may sustain your dogma another couple of decades.

Sam wrote on Apr 27, 2007 4:56 PM:To people like Matt. McCarthy was CORRECT by the way. Commis actually had taken over the areas Joe complained about as proven 40 years later. Where does that put your agenda, well? Ignorance is the #1 threat to humanity.

To Adamant wrote on Apr 27, 2007 4:57 PM:We shall see Adamant. We shall see. Fortunately you are not the court nor are you the appeals courts nor are you the Supreme Court. Nor am I. I am confident that the board's wrongful decision will be reversed either by the courts or by the board itself, however. In the meantime, you might elevate your credibility by not calling those with whom you disagree "feeble minded." The use of that term is also hurtful and insensitive to those parents of children who are developmentally challenged.

Thank you Murrieta School Board... wrote on Apr 27, 2007 5:13 PM:...for your courageous vote. My hope is that students enroll in this course and that they will be exposed to the truths in the Bible. AMEN! I would encourage readers to refrain from being meanspirited when offering differing viewpoints.

SECULAR HUMANIST wrote on Apr 27, 2007 5:15 PM:I am a secular humanist. We believe that ethics and morality are not dependent upon a religious doctrine and that real freedom is freedom of thought. Nobody should impose their brand of religion or lack of religion on anyone else. No one group should have the right to impose on the rest of society. A debate as to the truth of religion or evolution or whatever belief system you embrace is irrelevant to the principle that in this country we respect each others views but we don't force them upon each other.

Ed wrote on Apr 27, 2007 5:23 PM:It really saddens me how much anger and vitriol there is about this topic. One thing I’ve noticed in our country is an inability to communicate to each other in an intelligent and respectable fashion. What would happen to or nation if there was only one political party? Only one religion? Only one corporation? What ever you want to call it; slavery, bondage, oppression, it is not America. Please RESPECT each others views. Please LISTEN to each other.

IN THE DARK wrote on Apr 27, 2007 5:25 PM:To "Adamant." You are whistling in the dark. The ACLU and the AU have successfully defeated numerous school board attempts such as this one by the Murrieta board. Rest assured that the board's decision will not survive a legal challenge and that the case law is replete with decisions to sustain such a challenge.

Curious wrote on Apr 27, 2007 5:25 PM:If life on earth is a product of evolution...where do natural rights (life, liberty, property)come from? Animals murder each other for survival all the time. What then are we suppossed to do as hairless monkies?

Albert Einstein wrote on Apr 27, 2007 5:28 PM:To those who say the world could not be created in "six days" need to study my Theories of Relativity. In it I prove MATHMATICALLY that time is realtive to the observor and is not constant throughout the universe. Forces such as gravity and speed can alter the way things travel through time (age).

John wrote on Apr 27, 2007 5:34 PM:It is clear from many of the posted comments that the concerns expressed by the ACLU and others who advocate the separation of Church and State are justified. The AMEN's aren't for exposure to some great literary work, but exposure to the God of the Bible. Remember, all you who advocate religion in our schools, that majority sometimes rules. One day your religion may not be in the majority.

To John wrote on Apr 27, 2007 5:36 PM:Exodus 21:15 says "Anyone who ATTACKS his father or his mother must be put to death." What a great excerpt to study. It has context issues...how does a wondering group of ex-slaves create order; it has present day application (Eric and Lyle Menendez); as well as cross cultural comparisons (what would other societies do). I would enjoy a class or History Channel show like this. And that is only one excerpt.

FREEDOM wrote on Apr 27, 2007 5:44 PM:In Saudi Arabia the penalty for disagreeing with or deviation from the State religion of Wahabi Islam is death. Death by a public beheading. This is an exteme example of a government imposing its religion on the populace, I know. The principle is instructive in this debate, however. The decision of the Murrieta board is another instance of governmental intrusion into religious beliefs or lack thereof, albeit a milder one than that of Saudi Arabia. Thank Heaven. (If you will excuse the expression.)

comparative religion wrote on Apr 27, 2007 5:55 PM:I took a Comparative Religion course in college. It literally changed my life. I can remember sitting in class when I was struck with the thought "Oh my gosh, this stuff is all made up. Made up whole cloth from the mind of man." I changed my major to philosophy and never looked back. To the very religious people who think this course will somehow make the students who take it more religious, they may be in for a surprise. And it may be a surprise they don't like.

Which Way Arnold wrote on Apr 27, 2007 5:59 PM:Where does Arnold stand on this? The terminator will have the final word on all of this no doubt.

Greg in Oceanside wrote on Apr 27, 2007 6:01 PM:Boy, a topic like this sure brings the “bible thumpers” out of the woodwork. If Murietta schools teach religion then they’re in for trouble. As for theories, when has anything from the Bible, Koran, or any other ‘religious’ doctrine been proven? These documents were created or written to ‘explain’ the unknown to simple (and ignorant) people hundreds and thousands of years ago. As for evolution, it is highly studied, researched and there’s abundant physical evidence to ‘prove’ this conclusion. So to all you creationists, I challenge you to show proof of anything related to Adam and Eve and creation. And to the person who espouses his belief in Islam, you have a lot of explaining to do. Explain to us why there are so many terrorists in your midst? And why you’re at it explain to us about the 73 virgins that Islamic extremists think are waiting for them when they blow themselves up.

Murrieta Mom wrote on Apr 27, 2007 6:23 PM:Here here, Secular Humanist! A great argument - kids, with the guidance of their parents, should have the right to study the Bible and world religions in school if they want. No one should be allowed to say they cannot and impose their secular beliefs on those kids. Great points!

Hal wrote on Apr 27, 2007 6:36 PM:I guess it would be studying faith, then. Something that cannot be quantified. Something this person believes and that one doesn't. A captive audience. Teachers enjoy captive audiences. Always time for an editorial remark when it is least expected.

to thank you wrote on Apr 27, 2007 7:26 PM:Keep in mind, they will also be exposed to the untruths in the bible.

Correlation Man wrote on Apr 27, 2007 7:56 PM:The only way to have an objective Bible course is to make sure an atheist is teaching it.

S wrote on Apr 27, 2007 8:10 PM:I hope the Bible will be presented in this course in the same way a teacher would present The Odyssey or the story of the Fenris Wolf---part of a completely mythic, superstitious, and magical minded tradition. Although there is value in a student being able to identify biblical allusions (sadly, this wholly fictional document HAS influenced modern culture), I highly suspect that this course is a means to push a religious agenda. If this course is to be REAL at all, it ought to invite students to investigate the contradictions, logical fallacies, and lack of science in the Bible in a critically minded and analytical way.

Observations wrote on Apr 27, 2007 10:40 PM:Is the Bible in literature an elective or a manditory english class? The way I read the article it is not an elective. "Bible in Literature will be a one-year high school English class." While the Survey of World Religions is described "The world religion course will be a semester-long elective and" This sure sounds to me like they are trying to get the christian god into the classroom. I doubt this will stand up in court. The reason we need to keep religon out of the class room is simple. It is to protect the children of the minority faiths and or lack of faith from being taught that a religon not of their parents choosing is fact. The funny thing is that the founding fathers set it up this way not because they weren't christians but because they were from different christian sects and they couldn't agree on a single sect so they wisely kept the state out of the god buisness.

Observations wrote on Apr 27, 2007 10:53 PM:As for evolution just being a theory, there is far more evidence for it than there is for the bible. But arguing that is a waste of time because you have made up your minds and no amount of proof will ever shake your faith. Earth the universe and everything is only 6000 years old? The evidence for this theory is simply not there. Any geologist would scoff at this silly idea. But your christian fundamenalist preacher tells you it is so and you buy it. If you really want to see your faith get shot full of holes or if you are an atheist and want to watch the eloquent shredding of religon just go to Google video and search Richard Dawkins.

Correlation?? wrote on Apr 27, 2007 11:52 PM:Using your logic, certain course curriculum that require the teacher to teach objectivity and perspective (art, philosophy, political science,etc) should be taught by persons with no knowledge of the subject. That does not make sense to me.

S wrote on Apr 28, 2007 10:05 AM:I agree that an atheist should teach the course, if it is to remain objective. To the person who suggested this would mean that course curriculum "should be taught by persons with no knowledge of the subject" and that this would not make sense, I have response. I am an atheist, and I have full knowledge of the Bible. I was raised in a Christian household and went to a Christian elementary school. As I matured and began to study all subjects more analytically and deeply, I rejected the mythology in which I'd been raised. Several atheists I know are people who've studied the Bible at length---and rejected it for its contradictions, lack of logic and science and sense, and obvious translation issues. The best teacher is one who has the ability to think and reason critically about his/her subject matter. Faith is emotional; it is not rational or based on critical thinking. If this really is to be a course that does not push religious values, I would expect a non-religious person to teach it.

Observations wrote on Apr 28, 2007 10:22 AM:To Correlation?? You assume that an atheist couldn't have any knowledge about the bible or christianity. This is a false assumption. On the other hand the fundamentalist christians claiming the world was created 6000 years ago obviously have no knowledge of geology, archaeology, astronomy, biology and a couple of dozen other scientific disiplines. Yet they want to teach intelliigent design in the class room. Why? Because their religon says their god made the world and anything that goes against that is the work of the devil!

JOHN wrote on May 2, 2007 2:13 AM:Separation of Church and State meen two things in the US constitution.First that the government SHALL NOT MANDATE ANY RELIGION, second,YOU MAY PRACTICE ANY RELIGION YOU WANT.. THATS ALL FOLKS. Its a simple docuement in PLAIN ENGLISH.

Mary wrote on May 2, 2007 10:33 PM:Once I took a course in Bible theology is when my occasional doubts about organized religion turned into a total loss of belief... not only in organized religion but also loss of belief of an all-knowing God who punishes or rewards believers.

John wrote on May 3, 2007 6:58 PM:It won't be the same as a naive 5 year-old being forced to go to Sunday School. I suspect the outcome of trying to teach bible myths to intelligent teens is to increase the ranks of non-believers.

Jeffersonian wrote on May 5, 2007 12:58 PM:I wonder if they will teach the Bible Literature course honestly. Will they also teach the students how much of the Bible has been revised and edited by others over the years to reflect their own, personal religious beliefs or to remove sections that contradicted those beliefs? Will they expose the story of the "adulteress" that Jesus was alleged to have spared from stoning as the unauthorized addendum of a minor scribe – a story that never appeared in the original texts? Will they point out that the "virgin birth" was a theme used commonly by MANY other mythologies long before myth of Jesus? Those who think the Bible is the “word of God” should find out a little more about its history (for example, read Bart Ehrmann’s “Misquoting Jesus”, for one). If it weren't for the fact that Constantine used his political might to elevate an obscure religious sect to world prominence through subjugation and brutal oppression, the Bible would have been relegated to the same obscurity as so many other mythological texts that were just as prevalent (and just as mythical) during that stage of human development.

George wrote on May 25, 2007 3:08 AM:Christianity is all about love. It doesn't teach nor tolerate any inhumane character, but submissiveness & respect. So what's wrong with that! Because true and great wisdom start's from the fear of God.

Reardon wrote on May 25, 2007 10:26 AM:Mark Twain introduced many of us to Numbers 31, and at that point many of us began to question about "Christianity is love. It does not teach or tolerate any inhumane charachter..." Numbers 31: "God" ordered the death of every member of a tribe -- men, women, and children (even babies) -- except he Virgins (those who have not lain with a man) who were to be distributed to the winning warriors and the Priests. How does THAT comport with a "Loving God?" I am not certain that the murder of innocent babies shows much "love." I further suspect that what the Virgins suffered at the hands of the warriors and priests was something far from "love." True Believers need to do more studying.

thoughtful comment wrote on Dec 4, 2007 9:24 PM:Personally i think that the teachers have a good intention and sinc it is an elective no one really has to take the course, and all of the people that are against the class don't take it. However i believe that religion should not be mixed with any government foundations, law does state that religion should not be mixed with government institutions and i don't think Jesus wants anyone to violate the law. The classes are a good idea TO WHOEVER WANTS TO TAKE THEM.

ANABAPTIST RELIGION wrote on Aug 1, 2008 10:58 PM:SOME PEOPLE SAY THEY DONT BELIEVE IN God most specially the Athiest, why? dont you believe that there is no God? and How can you say that since you belong in an athiest? then you may have a peaceful life?? We all nothing in this world, Without God we can do nothing, God is true because He is the one who created us, He is the one who crucified for the sakes of people, great agony he felt just to save people...but I must tell you that this is now the high time to awake...Pride goeth before destruction, I am here to tell to you that if those people who dont believed in God is condemned already...SALVATION IS A GIFT.. dont let the devil win..because time will come that God should judge all the iniquities of people..God must happy if you aide in him..please I urge you to be closer from God and not to Satan.

I belong in Anabaptist religion, because WE believe that Anabaptist teach the right doctrine because we all base in one Bible which is KJV 1611.

hOPE you will receive God as your PERSONAL SAVIOR.