AW4cryinoutloud wrote on May 10, 2007 11:41 PM:There you have it again. This time from a General.. A TIME reporter suggesting the Marines went on a rampage. The same reporter who had Iraqi's in Iraq doing the interviewing and reporting it to him? Kind of like NCIS...Get hearsay and write it down with your own spin on it sometime later. Not much investigating. Just get out there and get those statements any way you can. Matters not whether it's truth or fiction. After all; it's only the reputations and lives of OUR Marines being stomped on. In the Gulf War we had Peter Arnatt(sp?). Today we have TIME and McGirk. Oops; don't forget Human Rights, the Post, and Murtha.

GFN wrote on May 11, 2007 8:58 AM:It is so regrettable when civilians die as we wage war in their cities...so sad. Well, just give them a couple of thousand dollars each and move on. We need to be waging door to door combat for their safety, otherwise, they will be in danger if we leave. Man, this is nuts!!!

SAYS IT ALL wrote on May 11, 2007 2:44 PM:I think the fact that one of the Marines admitted that he urinated on a dead Iraq's head says it all. The guy is a psychopath. So are the rest of them. We've got thousands of troops in Iraq and a few are bound to be bad apples. They will be convicted based on the overwhelming evidence against them. Wait and see. And they will be spending many, many years at Ft Leavenworth, finally to be released as the goofy old men they will be by then.

IRAQI MAN wrote on May 11, 2007 2:48 PM:I am here from Iraq and we have a gas station with a store. It so bad when Iraqi men, women & children get killed for no reason and by American soldiers too. Life is hard over there & we are humans, not to be trampled like this.

DERELICTION wrote on May 11, 2007 3:01 PM:Dereliction of duty is putting it mildly. What a disgrace those Marines are to our country! I know they are innocent until proven guilty and all of that, but there's no way that their defense counsel can wiggle them out of this one. No way. There's a mountain of evidence to sustain the charges. Next stop? Life in the brig!

check fire wrote on May 11, 2007 3:27 PM:Ummm, Mr SAYS IT ALL, check fire. The guy who pissed on the dead has been given immunity in exchange for his testimony. Sweeeeeeeeeeet...

AEQUITAS ET VERITAS wrote on May 11, 2007 3:28 PM:Believe me Iraqi Man, not all Americans are bad. By no means! And welcome to our country. Don't be discouraged by the outbursts of a few unstable and insane malcontents! .... I hope that you are on the path to naturalization just as millions of our undocumented migrants will soon be! Ours is a country of immigrants. Welcome!!

To :Says It All wrote on May 11, 2007 3:41 PM: I hope that you're right; that these guys aren't typical of our troops and are just a few bad apples; but the recent research about the prevailing attitudes re: abuse of innocent civilians, indicates the lack of ethics and honor, may be the standard of today's Marines and the rest of the service for that matter. It can't help that the Commander In Chief is without morals or scruples and the Attorney General endorses torture.

Accountability wrote on May 11, 2007 4:06 PM:The Commanding General is ultimately responsible and should have taken immediate action to initiate a preliminary inquiry when it was determined/reported that a large number of civilians had been killed. This is particularly applicable when small arms are involved. There were standing orders inside the Division to this effect and the General is responsible. Other violations of the laws of war are regretable and indeed criminal. It is hard to see the Sgt who admitted to murder being granted immunity. This undercuts the entire process and casts a broader shadow on those who may not have known the gory details up the chain of command.

SAYS IT ALL wrote on May 11, 2007 4:25 PM:To Post at 3:41PM. I think you are right. Rumsfeld was the arch example of the evil one. He endorsed torture and was disgusting in his protestations of innocence about the Abu Ghareb atrocities and his shameful arrogance was more than disgusting. Certainly Bush is the most guilty of all the yoyos now infesting D.C. Given the signals from the very top that anything goes, a culture of arrogant criminality has taken shape in our military forces. These Marines are a manifestation of that.

Why? wrote on May 11, 2007 4:52 PM:My heart and prayers go to the Marines whom this is affecting. We are in a War,and I'm so tired of the liberal media not telling the truth or tainted news. Therefore, I don't believe this. Semper Fi Forever.

AW4cryinoutloud wrote on May 11, 2007 4:58 PM:To IRAQI MAN: You are here in America safe and sound. You own a gas station. I'd leave that part out next time if I were you. Welcome to America; Land of the Free and Home of the Brave. Has anyone told you why you are here safe and sound? Has anyone bothered to tell you that it is through the blood, sweat, and tears of OUR AMERICAN Soldiers? Has anyone told you that it is through the sacrifice of the families of those Soldiers? Has anyone told you that it is through the LIVES of OUR AMERICAN Soldiers? Yes, you are human and should not be trampled on. OUR MARINES are also human and should not be trampled on. Yet they are being trampled on without having been proven guilty of anything. They are ACCUSED. In this country we are supposed to PROVE an accused's guilt. So, until someone does that, please do us the courtesy of having a little repect for those who fought for your people. If you believe AEQUITAS who cares not about justice for OUR MARINES, but refers to anyone who does as an unstable, insane, malcontent, then you have yet to learn of the AMERICA that was founded on the very principals I mentioned to you earlier. If you follow the path and beliefs of AEQUITAS then perhaps you'd be better served going back to IRAQ.

BEEN THERE DONE THAT wrote on May 11, 2007 5:45 PM:MAY 11,2007. I guess it is easy for you civilians... to critize not having been in combat. This is another war where you can't tell the friends from the enemy. I am a combat vet from Korea and a former Marine. We often had to kill the enemy and civilians to save lives. If you have never seen combat,you won't understand.

To IRAQI MAN wrote on May 11, 2007 8:25 PM:What Iraqi town are you from? You write pretty good English and read American newspapers. And a business also! Very lucky Iraqi man and family, if you really are that....prove it. You're convinced that these particular troops are guilty. Convince me you're not guilty of being a fake.

AW4cryinoutloud wrote on May 11, 2007 11:22 PM:To IRAQI MAN: Welcome to America where you live safe and free. Has anyone told you why you are safe and free? It is through the blood and sweat of American troops; such as the "accused" Marines. It is through the lives of American Soldiers; such as the "accused" Marines. Yes, you are human and should not be trampled on. Our Marines are also human and should not be trampled on. Yet they are, without having been proven guilty of anything. In this country one is innocent unless proven otherwise. Do not "presume" the guilt of those who have fought for your freedom. Have respect for them and for those who have given their lives for that freedom. If you can't do that, please feel "free" to return to Iraq.

freeourtroops wrote on May 12, 2007 7:47 AM: General Petraes has never seen battle, but he is telling our troops to "obey the rules". Does the enemy obey the "rules"??? I don`t think so, otherwise they would not be using women and children as shields, as in the case of the accused Marines. We are using a "politically correct" strategy in this war, which is a losing strategy. I remember the Vietnam war, the first "politically correct" war in which our soldiers were persecuted for doing their job, and we were not allowed to win. Forget the d*** rules! Take off the handcuffs, and let our troops fight to win!!! Free our soldiers!!

JSten wrote on May 12, 2007 9:52 AM:I think enough of our Service Men have thrown tehmselves on this sword. Lets pack up and move on. Saddam is gone, lets let the Iraquis sort it out for themselves. We can always kick their butts later if there is a problem. Syria and Iran will probably be a problem but what the hey-they are now.

IRAQI MAN wrote on May 12, 2007 4:57 PM:We are from Kufa. I graduated from college there many years ago and came to USA in 1961. I took English couses for 4 years at Univ and have been fluent in English for many years. We are Shia, but deplore the civil wars now in Iraq. I am a naturalized US citizen. I am 76 yrs old and have family here in so calif. I don't say that the American soldiers are guilty to intentional kill Iraqi civilians because I dont know. We just feel sorry for all people killed in Iraq, American or Iraqi. America is greatest country in the world, no doubt about it, and we are grateful to be here.

To IRAQI MAN wrote on May 12, 2007 6:26 PM:Thank you for your answer and all my best wishes for many blessings to you and your family.

AW4cryinoutloud wrote on May 12, 2007 11:57 PM:To IRAQI MAN: It seems that no matter who you are or where you're from, it is so easy to take something for granted. Just as many Americans and people around the world have taken it for granted that our Marines were guilty, I took it for granted that your freedom here in America was paid for by the blood of good, decent Marines like the ones who have been unjustly accused. I have read comments by Iraqi's who, without knowing the truth of things, have said things like, "The Iraqi government should have summoned those soldiers and executed them", "I prefer they won't be executed, and to be handed over to Haditha people to get the punishment they deserve", "They should get the death sentence because they carried out planned executions", and, "We don't want them executed in the U.S. Let them bring them here in Haditha and we will tear them apart". You see, many of us are on the defensive when it comes to these type of comments from a people for whom so many of our own have given their lives; For so many of our troops who truly want to help your people yet can never tell from one day to the next who is the enemy. You know, as well as I, that the enemy will sacrifice women and children. Our Marines do not purposefully seek to do the same. They only try to stay alive the best they can and if any innocents are lost in the fog of that defense, it is as sad to them as to you and your people. BUT, we do NOT turn our Marines over to any country. We do NOT execute those who try to defend themselves. If you are truly the person you say, then I owe you an apology for taking anything less for granted. I love this country and hope that you feel the same. AW4.

Patriot wrote on May 13, 2007 5:53 AM:AW4 is way out of line telling a 76 year old American citizen what it means to be an American and worse to invite him to leave and return to Iraq! I have heard the expression UGLY AMERICAN but she gives new meaning to it. She obviously hasn't the slightest idea what it means to be an American. What an arrogant disrespectful jingoistic bore. I won't copy her and invite her to leave, but I will say that we don't need her hateful insulting comments. I apologize to Iraqi man for her ignorance and intolerance.

Humanity wrote on May 13, 2007 6:37 AM:To the American who calls himself "Iraqi Man". You are a credit to this country and personify what America can be when we are at our best. Thank you for sharing your perspective, experience and compassion for those still in Iraq. Many here assume all Iraqis are the enemy. They harden themselves to torture and the suffering of little children and the grieving of mothers and attribute low and base motives to the widows and orphans complaints.

Patriot wrote on May 13, 2007 5:47 PM:I see AW4's apology; it wasn't posted at the time I wrote my comment at 5:53AM. As apologies go it is pretty conditional and heavy in justification. It doesn't really express much contrition, but it is better than I had expected of her. I wish I had the same confidence of the good intentions of our troops. Urinating on the head of a body...just doesn't jive for me. Now the apology issued by the officer in Afganistan for the 10 miles of carnage perpertrated by our troops...that was an apology!

AW4cryinoutloud wrote on May 13, 2007 8:04 PM:To Patriot: I posted to you almost 8 hours ago today but don't see it. I pretty much told you to get off your moral high horse. I said that "IF" Iraqi Man was not who he says, then I stand by my original comments. I insulted you a couple of times. I also told you that you had no monopoly on patriotism or what it means to be an American, and said I don't care if a blogger is 5 years old, 76, or 120 years old; that if they berate our troops I'll be on them like a Hawk on a Gopher. I really don't care whether or not you feel my apology expressed enough contrition. As for being conditional; Yes! It was made to one given the benefit of the doubt that he is what he says. A hell of a lot more than some Americans give the accused. I do not assume that all Iraqi's are the enemy. I assume that my countrymen; OUR Marines and all of our troops come first, before any other country on the planet. As for the officer in Afghanistan. He was doing what he was "ordered" to do. He, in the name of the Brass and politicians, was sucking up to the Afghanistan government, such as it is.

Noted in Passing wrote on May 14, 2007 1:53 PM:"cryinoutloud" starts off apologizing but by the time she is done, its the same hateful rhetoric to which we are constantly subjected. I guess I am not so sure about the character and motives of someone who admits to urinating on the head of a civilian who he shot, while the man was standing there with his hands in the air. I don't care what country he comes from, he doesnt get a pass.

AW4cryinoutloud wrote on May 14, 2007 3:50 PM:To Noted in Passing: Oh for goodness sake! You have a problem with me no matter what I say. If it doesn't cater to your beliefs or if you hear the truth you can't deal with it. Or maybe you just can't stand females who won't grovel. Who knows! OH! I noted in passing that you apparently don't pay much attention to what "any" one says, or you lack the capability to undertand what you read because you said you're "not so sure about the character of someone who admits to urinating on the head of a civilian he shot, while the man was standing there with his hands in the air." WOW! That must be one tall cottonpickin' Marine, to be able to pee on the head of a guy who is standing with his hands up in the air. I'd pay to see that. I should think you'd have a lot of respect for that dude. Now do you see how there can be different versions of an event? Although, I don't think yours would hold up in court. Chuckle, Chuckle!!!

AW4cryinoutloud wrote on May 14, 2007 5:06 PM:Well; I just read an article from a military site. It reported that Dela Cruz said the five men were standing with their hands interlocked behind their heads. Then, in the next paragraph it quotes Dela Cruz as saying "They were just standing, looking around, had hands up,"... Geeeze, I surrender! If we can't get it right, what do you think Iraqi so-called reporters might do? Scarey when you know that they were the ones who interpreted and reported to McGirk for TIME magazine. Yeah, these hearings, and or trials, are going to be as fair and impartial as the reporting when the Haditha story broke in 2006.

Noted in Passing wrote on May 15, 2007 6:38 AM:hey crier, I believe that if you go real slow and try to interlock your hands and put them behind your head you will find that the motion is putting your shoulders and arms and hands "UP" the interlocking behind your head comes as the conclusion of several Upward motions. I also think that if you envision someone being shot to death you will understand that they fall to the ground. I have never seen a depiction of a dead body, balanced on its two feet. It’s a matter of sequencing again: he shot the civilian, the man fell, and then he decided to desecrate the body by urinating on it. Not a tall Marine, more like a really low life sick-o.

GUILTY AS CHARGED wrote on May 15, 2007 10:04 AM:The foul act of urinating on the Iraq's head was done AFTER he was dead, not while he was standing. That's plain from the testimony. The officer in Afghanistan is OK because he was "ordered to do" it? That's the defense the Nazis offered to the Nurenberg Tribunal. Hitler made me do it, the devil made me do it. These guys are guilty as sin and will be found guilty. No doubt about that. The evidence against them is overwhelming. As for "innocent until proven guilty," that's fine for jury instructions but in the court of public opinion the evidence speaks for itself and no amount of weasling and bobbing and weaving can help the criminals. They aren't Marines, they are war criminals, loud and clear. And BTW, it's obvious that AW4 hasn't served in the military, because in basic training it's emphasized that a soldier doesn't have to obey an order to commit a crime, which is what these guys did.

AW4cryinoutloud wrote on May 15, 2007 2:15 PM:To Guilty: Mercy! Just when I thought it couldn't get any sillier. "IF" your first comment was directed at me, then you totally floated right over what I said to Noted. His comment at 1:53PM yesterday was misleading. I was making the same point that you just made; that the guy was dead so peeing on someone who was standing...etc. So if you're commenting to me you might want to go back and read Noted's original wording. I am so tired of people comparing our troops and leaders to My Lai (sp?), Hitler, and the Nazi's. Our President and Secretary of Defense, and don't forget the Generals, may not have planned war the way they should have but it's absurd to make such comparisons. Our troops are the BEST. They are as professional and brave as any I've ever seen. The Brits, Canadians and Aussies are right there with them. I'm sure there are others who I just haven't mentioned. Point is; you should be damned proud that we have so many honorable young men and women who fight for this country. Who the heck are you to pre-judge any of these Marines? The evidence against them is NOT overwhelming. You seek only the negative. You focus on only the negative. You totally ignore anything questionable about the first media reports, the unlawful leaks, the so-called Human Rights groups, the unlawful comments of Murtha, and the coercive and inefficient practices of NCIS. Geeze! Take a course in law will you. INNOCENT until PROVEN guilty is not just for 'jury instruction'. It is LAW! Under the UCMJ and Manual for Courts-Martial testimony and evidence is to be CORROBORATED and one must not be found guilty unless guilt is PROVEN BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT. I haven't seen that happening in the Hamdania or these cases. NOT ONE trial; only plea deals. The "court of public opinion"? Say What??? There is NO court. There is public opinion, period, and, as you put it, "no amount of weasling and bobbing and weaving", holds any merit in a COURT of LAW. OUR Marines are NOT war criminals. You said a soldier doesn't have to obey an order to commit a crime. Fair. BUT! NO one followed an order that was a crime. Our Marines followed the words of the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff who said they have the "Absolute Right" to defend themselves. He also said that the environment will impact the perception of the threat. So, Give it a rest with the pre-judgmental crap. Oh Good Gravy! There you go...Pre-judging again! You have just proven your lack of credibility. You know nothing about me but have come to a conclusion without knowing the facts; the same way you have made your conclusions concerning these Marines...without knowing all of the facts. Have I ever said I served in the military? Nope! I'm not a guy and have past the age for that. Have you served? What branch and what rank were you? I find it hard to believe that you've served because I would think you'd have more compassion for the accused. I would think you'd at the very least give them the benefit of the doubt. They are Americans and deserve their RIGHT by LAW to defend themselves. Aaarrrgghh!

IRAQI COURT wrote on May 15, 2007 3:39 PM:From what I am reading the Marines charged with murder & etc in Iraq might be returned to Iraq for trial after their trial here. To be tried by an Iraqi court the way Saddam Hussein was since the crimes were commited in Iraq. Bush says they are a sovereign nation, so the reasoning is that Iraq has a right to try people for crimes commited on their soil. I guess the penalty there for murder is hanging, like with Hussein.

AW4cryinoutloud wrote on May 15, 2007 5:10 PM:To IRAQI COURT: Hi! Don't think we have to worry about it. I have an article from a Marine site, April 28, 2006, that says the Senate approved a plan August 3, 2006, as an amendment to to the 2007 defense appropriations bill, that would bar the U.S. from entering any agreement with Iraq that would subject U.S. service members to the jurisdiction of Iraqi criminal courts or punishment under Iraqi law. Senator Barbara Boxer and Lindsey Graham were the major sponsors of the bill. Aside from that, I believe the people of this country would not stand for it. I believe those of us who have been passive, would put up one hell of a fight to protect our servicemen and women from anything like that.

Silly???? wrote on May 15, 2007 6:06 PM: "Mercy! Just when I thought it couldn't get any sillier." The abuse of a human body wasn't silly when it happened in Somalia or when the servicemen were mutilated and hung from a bridge over the Euphrates River or when a US Marine pissed on the head of man they had just shot down while he was in custody and cooperating with orders.

AW4cryinoutloud wrote on May 15, 2007 8:27 PM:To Silly????: WHAT???? You make no sense. What the heck are you complaining about now? Are you "GUILTY", or are you "Silly???? OR both? Please clarify your gripe. You're rambling.

Is it Silly to desecrate a body? wrote on May 15, 2007 10:49 PM:You minimize the desecration of a body. Did you feel that way when the bodies of American service men were dragged thru the streets of Somalia? Did you feel that way when the charred bodies of our servicemen were hung from a bridge in Faluja? In your morality--when is it ok to desecrate a body? Is it ok to kill and then desecrate the body of an Iraqi civilian?

AW4cryinoutloud wrote on May 16, 2007 12:27 PM:To Is it Silly to desecrate a body?: Finally! You crawled out of your hole and illustrated your ignorance and lack of character through the two most absurd, arrogant, insulting questions I've ever been asked. Concerning our servicemen in Somalia and our contractors in Iraq, let me be clear, specific, and right up front with my answer. First of all, you damned well already knew the answer before you ever put your trashy MISinformation into those two questions. IF you had been reading my comments about our troops or Americans over the past nine months, then you have apparently been losing some brain cells if you missed the pride and love I feel for our troops and this country. My heart broke when I saw the film of what happened in Somalia. My heart broke when I saw the photos of what happened to the contractors in Iraq. I need go no further than that in defending myself to someone who has not the character that commands any semblance of respect. I might ask how you reacted? You seem to derive pleasure with your description. You say I minimize the desecration of a body. Wrong! To desecrate is "to abuse the sacredness of". The body in question was that of an insurgent. There is Nothing Sacred about the body of an insurgent. Not to me. After an IED attack where one of our own was killed, followed by an intense firefight where our Marines could have no way of knowing whether they would survive or be captured...FYI... I have no qualms about someone peeing on the body of one of those responsible for that attack. If my view on that is so unacceptable to you; that's your problem. Is it bad PR? Yes! Was it a bad idea? Looks like it! Does it piss off (pardon the pun) the world? Guess so! What's new about that? Was it a human reaction to a horrifying, terrifying experience? Damned Straight it was! If you must "pretend" that it compares in any way to the way the Somalians desecrated OUR servicemen, or to the Insurgents desecration of OUR contractors (All "Sacred"), then keep your sanctimonious attempt to chastise Anyone one for peeing on the body of a Barbaric murderer to yourself. And, before you go on about how the poor guy was an innocent...PROVE IT! My trust is in OUR Marines. Sure they screw up sometimes; who the hell doesn't in this life? I thought that was taken care of centuries ago by someone who said, " Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." Frankly; I don't see you, myself, or anyone on this planet casting the first stone.

IRAQI COURT wrote on May 16, 2007 12:48 PM:All I know is that we surrendered 3 of our servicemen to Japan back in 2003 for the rape and murder of a 12 yr old Okinawan girl. They were tried in Japan and are still in prison there, having been sentenced to life. I think maybe the Marines being tried at Pendleton could be turned over to Iraq later by treaty which under the Constitution supersedes all other laws.

To Silly wrote on May 16, 2007 1:12 PM:Your point is well taken and is on point in comparing with the Iraqi civilian's dead body which a Marine admitted urinating on. A barbaric, despicable act consistent with the atrocities for which the Marines are being courtmartialed. They will pay for their war crimes. Those who defend them are as bad as they are, legally required defense cousel excluded.

AW4cryinoutloud wrote on May 16, 2007 2:57 PM:To IRAQI COURT: DREAM ON!!!