George wrote on Jun 9, 2007 10:11 PM:Since the reason for congestion is due to SANDAG's hijacking of freeway expansion funds for mass transit and toll lanes, the solution to the problem is to eliminate SANDAG or reform it so it is responsive to our needs. Why wasn't that suggested in the article?

Jim wrote on Jun 9, 2007 11:16 PM:This is great, we pay billion in gas taxes and when we need a road they will charge us again. Then they will sell them off to foreign companies. They are doing it in Texas with the Trans Texas Corridor. I am tired of these eggheads from the think tank sitting around thinking of was to rip off tax payers. Get a real job Mr. Poole. and I am not talking about one in government.

ROAD RAGE wrote on Jun 10, 2007 1:13 AM:Thank you Mr. shill-for-the-private-tollroad-industry. Commuters awaken and discover you are getting screwed at the gas pump - and now - the very road beneath your wheels! Pay to fill 'er up; pay to move. With privatization, there ain't nothing free in freedom anymore.

Skip wrote on Jun 10, 2007 8:02 AM:A Better Way ..... Just have an Illegal Alien protest day every day. Remember the Illegal Alien Day of May 1, 2006? That was the day that freeways and roads all over the State and the Nation worked, as they were origionally designed.

Gary in Murrieta wrote on Jun 10, 2007 8:05 AM:I will admit that freeway driving is much better in San Diego then in Los Angeles, but as a long time vanpool commuter between San Diego and Murrieta, I would suggest getting rid of the Carpool Lanes. They are an ineffective waste of resources and do not work. Families with kids and gardening trucks are not carpooling.

Shame on Skip n Gary wrote on Jun 10, 2007 8:57 AM:Hey guys... get off the anti-illegal war path long enough to discuss other issues. There is a point of diminishing returns in your anti-Mexican whining. When I'm stuck in traffic up near Dana Point, I'm usually surrounded by Lexus, Mercedes, BMW's and SUVs - not low riders or gardening trucks.

Addicted to Growth wrote on Jun 10, 2007 9:11 AM:Mr. Poole is no different from an alcoholic or heroin junkie who refuses to give up his addiction and will rationalize to new extremes in order to preserve his deteriorating lifestyle. Addicts will sacrifice their friends, their neighbors, and their health to get one more fix. They will beg for money, rob your purse and then demand you to pay for recovery. One more road to one more development. One more needle mark on the arm of mother nature. One more road, one less park, one less canyon... Like addiction, growth in our area is not a sustainable model.

Nice going DDevine wrote on Jun 10, 2007 9:17 AM:Great! You got the Pro and Con in one article. This guy is a Pro at Conning us out of our parks. No need to run an alternate opinion. Did Issa and his Orange County toad roll cronies pay for this or what? Does the NCT have any integrity? I am dissapointed and skeptical. This is balanced like a Fox News report.

Betty wrote on Jun 10, 2007 10:21 AM:Google the nafta super highway you can see they want to turn this country into one big toll road. If you give the government an inch they will take a mile.They will tax you to build it and tax you to drive on it. I want to know who will own it. The texas toll roads are owned by a spanish corporation. Don't you just love globalism? It will cost a fortune to travel and if you don't have the money you will go no were. California's have paid for new freeways that have never been built show me the MONEY!

Floyd wrote on Jun 10, 2007 11:39 AM:The description of addicts by "Addicted To Growth" fits the viewpoint of the no-growth, mass-transit groupies almost perfectly. Growth is not an addiction! It's a normal part of life, something the professional planners and the pressure groups haven't been able to comprehend. That explains why we have insufficient housing and gridlock on the freeways.

Betty wrote on Jun 10, 2007 12:23 PM:Yes Floyd growth is a normal part of life. However the growth in California is not normal growth it is an invasion of millions of people who come hear illegally. The Mexican government and our so called elected representatives have succeeded in the requonquista of California for aztlan and Mexico. The toll roads are just another part of america being sold out for the NORTH AMERICAN UNION.

2 Floyd wrote on Jun 10, 2007 5:01 PM:Abnormal growth, like we have had here in So Cal is more like a cancer than a healthy maturation. Addicted is right - no one wants to give up any room in their comfortable lifestyles to mitigate the problems growth has caused. It's called denial.

Argh! wrote on Jun 10, 2007 5:10 PM:Betty, this is an article about building a road. A road that will primarily be paid for by Orange County suburbanites who want to pave our parks. The Mexicans are not forcing anyone to build this road, the Orange County Transit Authority is. The illegals probably won't be able to afford the toll if it goes through - so get over the Mexican rage. Let's save our park from OC creep.

Addicted wrote on Jun 10, 2007 5:25 PM:When a junkie looks out at the world he thinks, "If only there were more poppy fields, more needles, more dope. Then heroin would be cheap and there would be plenty for everyone. No one would ever have to go through withdrawal or face recovery again - one long euphoric high." And so the Pooles and Floyds see a world where transportation problems can only be solved by building and consumption. It is so clear to them - problems would be solved if we could grow enough jobs, enough houses, enough malls, enough roads to hold all the cars - and NO waiting in line please! They are hooked on a lifestyle, seduced by the pleasures of petroleum and fast food. The monkey is on your back guys. You better feed him or he will make you wait in traffic.

CHUCKLE, CHUCKLE wrote on Jun 11, 2007 8:44 AM:I have to chuckle as I read these whiny blogs. Oh, boohoohoo, poor me. And then there are the bloggers who weave the uuuuuuuuhhhhh'ILLEGAL ALIEN" rant into their other rants. Hey, that toll road is as inevitable as inevitable can be. Sure as the sun rising tomorrow morning. The toll road in Orange County and points north has been a big success and the toll road connector running to the Mexican border will be too. It's part of a master plan and there's no stopping it. It's not going to be put up to a vote. It's a done deal. chuckle, chuckle

Mikey C wrote on Jun 11, 2007 1:20 PM:300 Businesses and 800 homes can be relocated. The loss of a state park with the last pristine creek in Southern California can never be replaced. Even if it were 3000 and 8000 businesses and homes, it would still not be worth it. If OC really needs yet another toll road, they should find a better route alignment for it. Also, HOT lanes are not only planned in San Diego, they are already well under construction.

Fred wrote on Jun 11, 2007 2:03 PM:Why don't they keep the Orange County freeway in Orange County? Can't they re-route it to I-5 so that it is entirely within the Orange County? That way San Diego County won't have to pay for an Orange County Freeway, nor have the Orange County Freeway crossing through our parks. Or is it that Orange County doesn't want the freeway in their backyard and want it in ours?

Jay R. wrote on Jun 11, 2007 3:08 PM:The toll road will not solve the traffic problem, it will only encourage people to live farther away, buy more cars and drive more. Ask any traffic engineer, it's called "induced demand". Mr. Poole, a guy with two degrees, should understand this. There is nothing good or reasonable about paving over parks. Orange County needs to pull its head out of the sand and realize this. We've built 100s of miles of freeways, and we still have gridlock. We need to start sacrificing for the good of everyone to drive less and pollute less. Don't listen to his arguments that it will stymie growth and ruin our economy. How much economic growth will we have when all our water and air is polluted, and we live in a lousy area with no parks or greenery. It's a clean environment and a nice place to live, not a paved over parking lot, that drives economic growth.

Lee K wrote on Jun 11, 2007 3:37 PM:Of all the possible ways to solve congestion, this is the worst of all worlds. Privatization of public highways running through some of the most beautiful parkland and beach in the world. No - back to the drawing board. We can do better that this.

Mark wrote on Jun 12, 2007 4:48 AM:Only allow American made vehicles on the road. This will solve two problems, 1)help Ford, GM and our economy 2)reduce congestion on the freeways. And oh by the way no gardening trucks - that will solve the immigration problem.

jerry wrote on Jun 12, 2007 9:14 AM:according to OCTA's 07 MIS - Major Investment Study, a Trestles toll road by 2030 would be the least-used pavement in south county - at a toll rate by then surpassing $25 one-way, who would drive it? Toll-anything here in SoCal steals taxpayer right-of-way from all of us and does zip for overall traffic. We're being screwed (squeezed) by our traffic gods as they jam us onto stalled free lanes, as toll lanes set empty - as we pay for both - the free lanes we sit jammed on, and the toll lanes and toll roads that run 80% empty. The road joke's on us. When will we stop putting up with it? The next time a crystal-ball traffic expert aka toll road supporter speaks - tell him or her to move. We're overcrowded here, light rail is discouraged in favor of single occupancy car commuting so the only solution - all toll road proponents get the hell outta dodge - now. While we're talking about highway robbery - all 51-miles of OC toll roads could be freeways today for $3.8 Billion. Do the Math, It's a steal and the Bond Holders walk away happy. The money is in Measure M. Mention that to an OC Supervisor and watch them wet-themselves as they run away screaming NOOOOOO!!!! Real World solutions scare hell out of our elected politicans who carry the toll-road water for those who construct these commuter road blocks. We're being held hostage by mega construction influences who bankroll our politicans. They're not interested in our commute, they're only interested in our tax dollars, and they're winning. A toll road anywhere is a road to nowhere fast. Look around. Seeing is believing.

Pete in SC wrote on Jun 12, 2007 10:24 AM:Facts. Orange County Transportation Athority's own figures show OC tollways the least used roads in the county, attracting only 12-20% of daily commuters. Non-compete Agreements limit improvement to freeways and arterials paralleling tollways. Therefore OC tollways have demonstrably increased congestion here. Tollways proponents always sound like Mr. Poole. And they're always either ideologues or professional liars, i.e. politicians. Tollways surrounded by a network of freeways is a stupid idea, period. When the Otay tollway flops-- and it will-- you lucky citizens will get to bail it out. That's OCTA's plan for OC's tollways.

Pete in SC again wrote on Jun 12, 2007 10:43 AM: And the map with this article is bogus, too. It implies the 241 parallels the 5, but it doesn't. The 241 South would connect San Onofre with Yorba Linda and LA's most congested freeways, the dreaded 91. What idiot will choose to pay a $12 toll so they can drive out of their way, to get to the 91, to get back on the 5? Again, lies and distortion about a fundamentally stupid idea.

Bob H. wrote on Jun 12, 2007 11:53 AM:Politicians are passing the buck for the responsibility to maintain our roads to private owners, and sometimes foreign private owners. A private toll road owner can raise tools at the toll booth all they wont, and they will not be held accountable at the voting booth. The politicians created this mess by not gradually raising the gas tax, now they are trying to insulate themselves at the voting booth, by passing the buck by selling our vital infrastructure.

Heck NO !! wrote on Jun 12, 2007 1:08 PM:Toll Roads are bad. Not because we get someone else to build them, and only those that use them pay for them ...but because the allowance to build comes with restriction on our abiilty to improve or expand or build other roads that might influence the traffic flow on the toll road. That's what happened in Orange County and I'm sure that will happen here. Big business that want to build the tooll road will but restrictions on Cal Trans and the state for what they can do with existing hwys ...like not making them wider etc. This proposed highway is a good idea. I'd like to see it built. But not as a Toll Road operated by a private company for their profit. And we already pay plenty of money in road taxes ..we don't need to be paying more.

Steve wrote on Jun 13, 2007 9:57 AM:Your solution addresses the symptoms, not the cause. What will happen, when population in Southern California continues to grow and we have millions more people here? Gee, more highways, more tollways. The solution, the tough solution, is to keep the County beautiful by finding ways to limit growth. Oh no, we can't do that!!! Well, there is the cost of not doing that. It's our choice. Steve

Walt wrote on Jun 13, 2007 5:05 PM:Follow the money! Better still offer some positive suggestions for more effective ways to reduce congestion. (PS squeezing more people into high rise apartments near transit increases auto congestion). Best source if you don’t like tolls; stop the 40% of funds that go into mass transit that carries less than 2% of trips. In more than 20 years the region’s trips have increased 120%, cost of congestion multiplied 12 times. Transit has absorbed only 1.3% of the additions. See any clues for where to get funds that will eliminate need for tolls? Short term toll-free roads. Longer term new automation technology that will save land and energy and reduce auto dependence. Anticipating the “lets not be another Los Angeles, paved over with freeways, and congestion capital;”---most congested LA Metro Area has the country’s least freeway miles per capita, the highest density, and spends all it’s 1% sales tax on mass transit.

George wrote on Jun 14, 2007 10:43 AM:We've examined the concept of "induced demand" in the article "Unlocking The Secret Reason For Gridlock" at http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2007/03/27/opinion/commentary/32607185901.txt. If you try to put six ounces of orange juice in a four-ounce glass, it will overflow. Increase the capacity of the glass to eight ounces, and the juice will fit nicely. Adding capacity to a freeway does not cause congestion -- planning failures cause congestion.

George wrote on Jun 14, 2007 10:46 AM:By the way, "living in a lousy area with no parks or greenery" is called "Smart Growth" and can be seen in Downtown San Diego, Escondido, and (soon) throughout the county.

Tom wrote on Jun 15, 2007 9:55 AM:It's the housing ... Toll roads have not made money or relieved traffic congestion in Orange County. In fact traffic has been light on their toll roads. What they do, what they are really for was to open up more land to development, which dumps more traffic on exciting roads once people leave the toll roads. If you want to reduce traffic you have to build housing, shops and jobs closer together, not spread them out as we have for the last 60 years. Shorten the distance people have to travel to work and shop and they will travel less: duh! Make it close enough and they might be able to walk. This would save gas and money for a health cub membership.

solving the real congestion problem wrote on Jun 15, 2007 11:52 PM:To Mark: Wake up and smell the coffee...so called "American" brands like GM and Ford aren't necessarily built here anymore. My last Ford was built in Canada with parts from Korea and Japan. Our last GM's were built in Detroit from foreign parts and were lemons. GM and Ford sell inferior quality vehicles that are overpriced because the UAW is greedy and the American automakers have to cover their high labor costs. It is time that we stop "helping" these companies and let them change the way that they build cars. My "foreign" cars have been much more reliable and cost-effective than my "American" cars. If we all drove smaller cars, then perhaps the freeways would not be as crowded. Who needs a huge SUV to drive to/from work anyways? Many of the large SUV's that I see on the freeway are driven by one person with no one else in the car. Part of the problem with the congestion problem is that people don't know how to drive. It makes no sense to drive 80 mph weaving in and out of traffic only to slow down to 5 mph later in your commute. If everyone would just drive the posted speed limits and at a steady speed for the entire trip, then the congestion would not be nearly as bad. While the typical "American" cars are sitting in traffic spewing noxious fumes, burning gas, and supporting the fundamentalist regimes in the Middle East (poor gas mileage = more $ on fuel = more $ to the oil exporting nations) i'm emitting very little and running on my electric engine. While you're going bankrupt fueling your "American" car, i'm enjoying my freedom from frequenting the gas station. Perhaps you could stop bashing non-"American" cars and look for the real cause of the congestion.

Bill wrote on Sep 3, 2007 7:31 AM:The point of a toll road is to "internalize" the costs, environmental and otherwise, so that the users of the toll road pay them. Such costs are never avoided; rather the issue is "who pays?" For example, air pollution imposes health and other costs that, if the toll doesn't somehow include them, are borne by others through increase health care costs, lost time from employment from pollution related illness etc. The same is true of land and other costs. The point of a toll road is for it to be, in essence, self-sustaining or to at least shift the costs of highways to those who actually use them. A gas tax dedicated to highway funding only does much the same thing, but less efficiently or directly. (Toll roads, including the Foothill one, don't use gas tax dollars.) So if the toll road uses eminent domain to purchase the houses and businesses needed for the route, those costs are completely internalized and reflected in the toll. If, however, "free" land is used, such as the federal land underlying the San Onofre State Park, the cost is not internalized but borne by someone else, e.g., federal taxpayers who "own" or at least paid for the land or the San Onofre Park and its users. These costs are not left unpaid or unincurred, it is, again, always an issue of who pays. I think it is better for toll roads to internalize all of their costs and to have the users bear them. That will also cause south county development to be more rational, i.e., those who build or buy there will necessaritly account for the fact that they will have to pay a toll to have access. Development imposes infrastructure costs. Again, the quesiton is, "who pays?"

Frank wrote on Feb 7, 2008 12:04 AM:I say we abolish all carpool lanes and toll roads. The government should have never been allowed to take the ?peoples? land and turn it over to private opportunists. Their responsibility is to use ?our? tax money to build and maintain the roads?period! Their job is not to tell us how we can travel. Remember, it?s: Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness. Despite how they try to label it, this is just another form of a tax. All these socialist aspiring government types should consider leaving this great nation for socialist shores abroad. Either that or they should seriously reflect upon the principles for which this nation was founded upon. The forefathers were very anti government?they considered it evil. Hence the constitution set limitations on, and defined the responsibilities of, government. Remember it was all about ?liberty.? It was all about freedom from government intrusion in our daily lives?how far we?ve fallen. [Side note: checkout how much the citizen was taxed prior to the revolution compared to today. Is it time for another tea party?] The government as a whole, and those who serve in particular, have failed us horribly?they?ve been derelict in their duties?maybe even to the point of fraud in some cases. Here?s and example, in La Habra, CA, where I lived, the city bulletin boasted how they issued 700+ new building permits in one year. Additionally they approved a Wal-Mart, Costco, Super Target and many more new retail establishments. They were so gleeful about how much more revenues they would take in. They talk as though they?re running a for-profit-business. Yet they did nothing to increase the capacity of the streets. Guess what, now the entire southern part of the city is gridlocked from 6am to 7pm. Those who collect their paychecks (and often obscenely generous at that) off the backs of the taxpaying citizens should remember, and take to heart, their fiduciary responsibility to the citizen. ...