Agent says Pendleton Marine knew he shot child
By: TERI FIGUEROA - Staff Writer | ∞
CAMP PENDLETON -- Lance Cpl. Stephen Tatum saw the child -- young, dark-haired, wearing a white T-shirt and standing on a bed in his Haditha home -- but pulled the trigger, an investigator testified Wednesday that Tatum told him.
"There was a pause, a little hesitation, and then he said, 'That's the room where I saw the kid that I shot. Knowing it was a kid, I shot him anyway," Naval Criminal Investigative Service agent Matthew Marshall said Tatum told him during an interrogation four months after the shooting.
Tatum's attorneys dispute Marshall's contention and say Tatum never swore to or signed the statements that Marshall said Tatum made. They also argue that the statements attributed to their client, a 26-year-old Oklahoma native, are inadmissible in court.
The lance corporal is one of three Marines charged with the deaths of some of the 24 Iraqis killed in Haditha on Nov. 19, 2005. The case is the largest war crimes prosecution to emerge from Iraq since the U.S. invasion in 2003.
Tatum is in a Camp Pendleton courtroom this week for an investigative hearing, much like a preliminary hearing in civilian court, to determine if there is enough evidence to send him to trial.
NCIS agents also testified about their interviews with a 6-year-old boy and his 10-year-old sister who survived but were orphaned in the attack on their home.
Prosecutors say Tatum and other Marines stormed homes and killed 24 Iraqis in retaliation for a bombing that shredded a Humvee in their convoy. The bombing killed Lance Cpl. Miguel "TJ" Terrazas and wounded two others.
Attorneys for Tatum and his co-defendants say the Marines were the target of enemy gunfire after the explosion, and had run into the homes to chase their attackers.
Tatum is accused of killing people in the first two of the four houses the Marines stormed that day in search of insurgent fighters. His attorneys said this week that their client was following orders and defending himself properly in combat.
Marshall, testifying as a prosecution witness, said Tatum told him that he and three other Marines followed a fleeing person from the first home to the second. There, they shot a man at a door and lobbed a grenade into a washroom, Tatum said
While searching the home, Tatum heard his squad leader, then Sgt. Frank Wuterich, firing his gun, so he ran into the room and also fired at the people inside, according to Marshall's testimony about what Tatum told him.
"At that time, he stated that he'd (identified) them as women and children," Marshall said. "I asked if he shot them, and he said yes. He was very emotional about it, very sorry to the point that he cried."
In a later interview, Marshall testified, Tatum again told him he knew the people were women and children.
"He stated that women and children can hurt you, too, as justification for shooting them," Marshall said.
Tatum's attorney, Kyle Sampson, often sparred with Marshall through a lively cross-examination, during which Marshall said he did not record any of his interviews with Tatum, in accordance with NCIS policy. Marshall said the reports he generated after questioning Tatum were "factual representations" of what he said Tatum told him.
Marshall also acknowledged that Tatum had told him at least once that he had "unknowingly" shot women and children.
Tatum was first questioned by NCIS agents in what the case's lead agent, Brian Brittingham, testified was the only room the Marines made available to them -- the same urine-smelling, concrete subterranean room in Haditha where Marines had interrogated Iraqis.
That first session with NCIS lasted more than 12 hours.
While on the stand, Brittingham also said he interviewed Eman Waleen Al Hameed, a 10-year-old girl who survived when the Marines stormed her home. Her parents were killed in her home, also a set of her grandparents, an aunt and a 4-year-old brother.
"She said the Americans raided her house and killed her family and left," Brittingham said of an interview he did with her four months after the deaths.
-- Contact staff writer Teri Figueroa at (760) 631-6624 or tfigueroa@nctimes.com.
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Michael wrote on Jul 19, 2007 12:57 AM:I often wonder if Islamic terrorists are making note of where these mens families live? I suspect that they have. They are a culture of revenge and retaliation, even if it takes years. These men and those that support them are probably endangering their families lives and ours as well. WE are going to pay for ALL of these war crimes. If we had only showed the Muslim world that we value life as Christians are suppose to maybe they would accept our justice. No, we are going to give our war criminal's a slap on the wrist.
JA wrote on Jul 19, 2007 4:28 AM:What no tape recorders in Iraq, what a crock!
No Sweat wrote on Jul 19, 2007 5:26 AM:Let's just play the recordings of the interview. What, you say! There are NO recordings of the interviews? The NCIS wrote up the statements from their memories and notes? My, what confidence is inspired by the stellar performance again and again by the NCIS and military prosecutors. The more 'evidence' is introduced, the more the NCIS looks guilty.
Pat wrote on Jul 19, 2007 7:52 AM:I'm amazed that our young men still volunteer to join the military knowing that in the midsts of the horrors of war they will be prosecuted by their own country if they make any mistakes. Only the enemy is allowed to play unfair and committ murder, rape and other acts of horror. I don't know if these young men screwed up or not. Neither to any of you. I do know they were placed in a horriable war with unspeakable things happening all around them. What devastation to their young minds. I don't condone murder even in war but I do have some sense of understanding of how such things could happen.
Tony wrote on Jul 19, 2007 9:05 AM:There is no honor in shooting children.
American wrote on Jul 19, 2007 9:44 AM:Anyone during war who abets the combatants, are combatants as well. Doesn't matter who, what they are. A child or woman could shoot you just as dead. Our enemies are not fighting for honor and this is not a chivalrous fight. These enemies don't wear uniforms or govern a country - they are terrorists. They kill without convictions and for fanatical reasons. Are these men guilty or innocent? I don't know and I trust the court(s) will decide. I think the only people who know what happened are the ones on trial. I just hope they are not made scapegoats to appease those Americans who are quick to judge all from the safety of their easy chair.
Tony wrote on Jul 19, 2007 11:35 AM:No, the only other people who knew what actually happened there were shot to death. Shooting defenseless children is murder, and worse than that, its unamerican. Its a dishonor to kill defenseless children, no matter who is pulling the trigger.
AW4cryinoutloud wrote on Jul 19, 2007 12:36 PM:To Michael: The first thing that came to mind after reading your comments at 12:57AM was a quote from a militry site on terrorism and psychological warfare and the internet. Here's part of it: "They can use the internet to spread disinformation, to deliver threats intended to distill fear and helplessness..." Benefit of the doubt Michael?
To Pat wrote on Jul 19, 2007 12:58 PM:Only the enemy is allowed to play unfair and committ murder, rape and other acts of horror." You are complaining that our troops don't have the same right to commit mayhem as the "enemy" does? Are you serious?
AW4cryinoutloud wrote on Jul 19, 2007 12:59 PM:If all the prosecution has is the word of an agent who works for an organization, itself, under investigation for questionable practices, and testimony from someone who has made a "deal" With The Prosecution, no less; then when does the Corroboration or Proof come into play? Show me a handwritten confession, sworn to, and signed in the presence of counsel and then I may believe the prosecution's or the NCIS agent's story. In the fog of a firefight things don't happen in slow motion, like the way it's presented in court. There are split-second decisions. You can NOT Monday morning quarterback those decisions and they may not, in hindsight, be correct. They certainly are NOT criminal. If this insanity continues, half of our troops are going to end up either in the courtroom, the Brig, or 6 feet under!!!
So Sad wrote on Jul 19, 2007 1:00 PM:The majority of responses on this thread illustrate exactly why we need to end this invasion of Iraq. It also illustrates why we need to impeach Bush the Liar and Cheney the Evil immediately.
Nan wrote on Jul 19, 2007 1:02 PM:Are any of you supporters of this crime willing to hire these men as baby sitters for your children? I didn't think so.
AW4cryinoutloud wrote on Jul 19, 2007 1:12 PM:Hello! NCIS agents testified about their interviews with the 6 year old boy and the 10 year old sister? Is this the same little girl who also testified that she "knew" the IED was going to explode? Is this the same little girl who "knew" the Marines were going to be attacked? The same girl who did nothing? The same girl who was most likely, at the least, sympathetic to the insurgency? WOW! Now "there's" what we all would call a credible witness. Give us a break!
to Tony wrote on Jul 19, 2007 2:23 PM:It's a dishonor to kill knowingly innocent people PERIOD. But you do have to put yourself in their position. What if you are going through an experience that brings you to the point that you simpley have no humanity left in you and even develop a thirst for mayhem. You cannot honnestly say you would be that way if you were in their shoes.
to Tony wrote on Jul 19, 2007 3:22 PM:These men weren't looking for 'honor'; they were defending their lives and the lives of their brothers. In every war civilians are killed, innocent men, women and, yes, children. That's why it's good to get it over sooner rather than later. Want to help? Tell the Dems to put up or shut up, and do so yourself.
AW4cryinoutloud wrote on Jul 19, 2007 5:10 PM:To Nan: Think Again! YES! Do NOT presume to answer for us. We can answer for ourselves, thank you.
Tony wrote on Jul 19, 2007 5:13 PM:How is shooting an unarmed 6 year old defending your life? If you feel no shame for that action you should look inside yourselves. Why do you hate america so much?
to Nan wrote on Jul 19, 2007 6:01 PM:I wouldn't hesitate to have any of these men care for my children. You, on the other hand, I would definitely NOT want around my kids...
Daniel to Tony wrote on Jul 19, 2007 6:11 PM:1) You have not been following this very closely. The children were either being used by the insurgents as 'spotters' -- to tell the insurgents when the good guys are coming, and/or as 'shields.' Either way, when a terrorist uses a child they are placed -- by them -- in harm's way. The insurgents' desire to put them in the line of fire is a win-win for them: either our guys hesitate to shoot and are killed, or our guys open fire and possibly injure/kill children, resulting in the insurgent's propaganda victory, of which you are a participant. Hopefully this catches you up to the type of warfare being waged and arms you to not see things as black and white as they appear in the safety of your own home. 2) Shame? No -- though I feel very sorry for those who have no option but to pull the trigger as I'm sure they will live with that decision for the rest of their lives. 3) Hate America? What the ---- are you smoking?
Tony wrote on Jul 19, 2007 7:35 PM:So when he went in and recognized it was a child and shot him, its ok? Because the guy who shot him said he was a "spotter"? You are just crazy if you think that this act is acceptable. the military system wouldn't bring charges if they felt was acceptable. Are you trying to tell me that you're defending the killing of an unarmed child, alone in a room in his house? What is wrong with you? America stands for justice, not baby killing. Why do you hate America so much?
JA wrote on Jul 19, 2007 7:50 PM:Tony simple question WE'RE YOU THERE? don't judge the man based upon what a NCIS agent who doesn't follow procedures says. NCIS has ZERO credibility in these investigations anymore.
John1 wrote on Jul 19, 2007 9:24 PM:I truly doubt anything the NCIS "factually represented"... factual representation is not a NCIS strong suit.
Tony wrote on Jul 20, 2007 9:10 AM:Right, it must have been a "procedural error" that led to his charges. Not the murder of the defenseless child. Blame the system, not the child killer. That darn NCIS. Who do they think they are upholding the honor of the military? Again: there is no honor in killing children. This guy dishonors the vast majority of our military that wouldn't commit an inhuman act such as this.
JA wrote on Jul 20, 2007 6:46 PM:Tony you didn't answer the question
To Tony wrote on Jul 21, 2007 2:42 PM:Tony, you miss the point. All would agree with you that there is no honor in KNOWINGLY shooting unarmed women or children. The point is that these Marines did not KNOWINGLY shoot women and children. Ever hear of the concept of an 'honest mistake'. Look it up. The law and the courts allow people to make honest mistakes. Surely you have made 1 or 2 in your lifetime?
Honest Mistake? wrote on Jul 22, 2007 6:01 AM:I can honestly say that I never went into a room after being told it was full of women and little children, and sprayed them with machine gun fire. Honest!
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