AW4cryinoutloud wrote on Jul 25, 2007 10:20 AM:It still goes back to the leaders. Four months on one's first tour of Iraq and with admittedly P'poor training in counterinsurgency a young Marine is sent to live in a house out away from the command with 7 other Marines and is expected to do what a whole Battalion can't do? Why only 8 men put in this predicament? Was it not the prosecution and the hearing judges who were against Mr. Brannon and other attorneys going to the same town to invetigate on their own because it would take; what? around 1200 Marines to guard them? Things were bad in Hamdania in April, 2006; so just what the heck were only 8 men "ordered" to do there? One who uses one's initiative and makes an "ordered" plan, is not a ringleader or mastermind. Where did this crap come from? Our own media! Thanks for all the negative, accusatory, judgmental help CNN, TIME, Washington Post, NYTimes,etc; You "all" gave the prosecution a word they could run with and they certainly have run that one into the ground day in and day out for one freakin' year. NCIS agents must be very short people because they seem to not be able to look any higher than a Sergeant in the Marine Corps. The Department of the Navy and the Marine Corps funded the Stanford University experiment to learn how prisoners and guards react in situations like our Marines were put through. So, don't ANY blogger tell me that the military doesn't know exactly what it's doing in coercing these men. If the Pentagon and Department of Navy continues with its coercion of our Marines (This is my opinion; not that of NCTimes), one of these days there may not be any Marines. The phrase may become: The Few, The Proud, The Seaweeds.

AW4cryinoutloud wrote on Jul 25, 2007 10:29 AM:I am withholding judgment on this case until all the facts are presented in court. Anyone who pretends to know the truth now is completely naive.

Will wonders never cease wrote on Jul 25, 2007 11:00 AM: AW4L is witholding judgement on this case! She has not yet formulated an opinion? What an excellent and impartial juror she would make if she were eligible.

Reardon wrote on Jul 25, 2007 11:22 AM:AW4...more than 20 years ago I published a column in the SD Union/Trib called "Boy Scouts Don't Win Wars." The headline alone is instructive, and the facts do not change. Vince Lombardi said it best:" Winning isn't everything. It is the ONLY thing."

Don wrote on Jul 25, 2007 11:29 AM:I only hope that all of the panel members are of the defendant's rank or lower AND have each been to Iraq in similar combat situations. Only then will this trail be just. When the whistle is blown to fix bayonets and go 'over the top' of the trench, who can find a trooper that would hold back and say, "Well, I'm not so sure ...."

Embarrassing wrote on Jul 25, 2007 11:56 AM:Oh, so the accused conspired to say that NCIS coerced their statements, even though each and every one of them was advised of their rights and willingly implicated themselves during interrogation. The truth comes out. AW4, John1, Brother of Pennington, Reality Check, et al have been saying since day 1 that we should not prejudge these Marines, that the truth would come out during trial. It sure did!!! These Marines completely disgraced the United States and dishonored the USMC. Everybody who donated money to the defense fund, stood outside the gate on Saturday morning or offered any kind of support to these men, should be ashamed of themselves. The only winners in this mess are the high priced defense counsel representing these embarrassing Marines. Joke!

To flip flopper (AW4) wrote on Jul 25, 2007 12:37 PM:Seriously?? NOW you're withholding judgment "until all the facts are presented in court"? (jaw drops to the floor) For months you stirred the pot, all we heard from you was "NCIS coerced,interrogated, tortured," NOW, we have the testimony from Schumate stating they were told by Magincalda to "say NCIS coerced false statements from us". Where do you get your information anyway? I guess YOU'RE pretty naive because for months you've "PRETENDED" to know the truth and obliterated anyone who dare to disagree with you.

To Embarrassing wrote on Jul 25, 2007 12:51 PM:Amen.

To Embarassing wrote on Jul 25, 2007 12:59 PM:You are a embarassment, not the marines. I am in Shock I came onto this website to read a article on VERY close friend of mine, Sgt. Lawrence Hutchins, to read such a DISGUSTING comment from someone. I am PROUD of helping raise money, donating money to the fund for Lawrence Hutchins. Why you ask? Because I know him on a personal level and he is one of the greatest marines and people to walk this earth! YOU my dear, are a disgrace to this country and I am glad you aren't in a uniform serving this country because you are obvioulsy AGAINST us. YOU ARE THE JOKE EMBARASSING NOT THE MARINES! I will Stand up for ALL of these men until EVERYONE is set free and I will do it with Honor and Pride because I support EVERYONE who is over in Iraq. Instead of sitting here writing such negative comments. Do yourself a favor. Put on a uniform and go to Iraq, then we will see what you have to say. FREE SGT LAWRENCE HUTCHINS!!!!

By the Way Embarassing wrote on Jul 25, 2007 1:01 PM:Like I was saying before, I am a PROUD friend of Lawrence Hutchins. ALL you know is what the MEDIA is writing. You do not know ALL the details like you "think" you do. So before you pass just BAD judgment on these young men think about what you actually DO NOT KNOW. ...

To EmbarrASSing: wrote on Jul 25, 2007 1:09 PM:YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH. Nor will you ever understand it because you alread have your small little mind set!!

brig guard wrote on Jul 25, 2007 2:37 PM:stop judging the military officials. they gave these guys more chances to come clean and treated them better than any prisoner ive seen. the brig had to rewrite its entire SOP(standerd opperating procedure)because the press was telling everyone how abused these eight were. And dontbe so sure how nice these men were ive seen them spit on and assult guards and get away with it.

John1 wrote on Jul 25, 2007 2:41 PM:That looks like a pseudo AW4 post.

Embarrassed As Well wrote on Jul 25, 2007 3:04 PM:I am more than embarrassed, I am disgusted at the Imperialistic way our leaders invaded a country THAT DID NOT ATTACK US! I don't blame the troops, I blame Bush and Co. And before you get your knickers in a twist and start calling me names, get over it. I am allowed my opinion, at least for now.

Embarrassing wrote on Jul 25, 2007 3:17 PM:I have been in uniform in both Iraq and Afghanistan and if SGT Hutchins "is one of the greatest Marines and people to walk this earth", our country is in a very sad state. I think several of the "8" would disagree with you. I think several of the "8" would probably not be in the predicament they are in right now if not for SGT Hutchins and his poor leadership ability. SGT Hutchins, being the senior Marine on site, is responsible for the actions of his men. ... SGT Hutchins is a joke and an embarrassment to the USMC and the USA.

Slappy wrote on Jul 25, 2007 4:10 PM:GOD BLESS THE MARINES. The Master mind behind all this is George Bush He is the Commander and Chief. He should know that you dont send marines any place that you dont want destroyed and people killed. DUH Next time he should deploy the Saint Marys girls softball team.

Amazed wrote on Jul 25, 2007 4:42 PM:These "8" kidnapped and killed an innocent civilian. Period. There is no government conspiracy against them, just justice taking it's course. I have deployed to Iraq a few times and have never had to execute someone to "send a message". These Marines are not representative of the Corps and how we do business!

To Brig guard wrote on Jul 25, 2007 4:47 PM:GET REAL!!! You had them shackled before charges were made, marched across base to humiliate them, And not all but alot of the guards were on power trips. guards were not nice or easy on them. I Know first hand what was done to some of them by the guards. You had to change SOP because the way the military treated these guy's has never ever done before nor since.

I don't believe Brig Guard: wrote on Jul 25, 2007 5:46 PM:I know all these guys and I don't believe that any of them ever did any such a thing as what he is claiming.

Lil Tz wrote on Jul 25, 2007 5:52 PM:I 100% respect my squad leader. That's why I couldn't turn on him. In combat you develop a brotherhood that surpasses any thought that a normal person could ever comprehend. Sgt. Hutchins and Cpl. Magincalda put their life on the line every single day for me while in Iraq. The least I can do is stand here and support them till the end. "BRIG GUARD"........KICK SOME ROCKS!

Please tell me. wrote on Jul 25, 2007 6:23 PM:Is the death penalty or life without parole on the table for this one? I hate to think that he could be out and about mingling with decent people.

John1 to Brig Guard wrote on Jul 25, 2007 6:24 PM:What a load!! There WAS NO WAY that sort of thing could happen and it would have resulted in instant lockdowns for these guys...

John1 to Lil Tz wrote on Jul 25, 2007 6:24 PM:Cheers to you, Trent!

Coffeefiend wrote on Jul 25, 2007 7:59 PM:To all the anti-8 out there - "Please tell me" in particular- a quick question - how many of you would want to go on trial for murder with the lack of evidence facing these heroes? On his trip to Iraq, Sgt. Hutchins' atty got 20 minutes on the ground to gather evidence - not much, huh? There is a dearth of forensic evidence. So before you line up to hang these men who, by the way, VOLUNTEERED to PROTECT YOU, please consider how you would feel in their shoes. I am proud and humbled to be a supporter and friend of these heroes and wil continue to do so. Hutchins and his men ARE decent people. They would willingly die for you and you in turn wish them the death penalty? Rethink, please, your definition of "decent people" as it applies to you.

Amazed wrote on Jul 25, 2007 8:13 PM:I don't think anyone is "anti-8"- they are just anti-murder!. If a policeman who volunteered to save and protect my life decided to kill an innocent man because he couldn't find a criminal, I'd want him in jail too!

War is Hell wrote on Jul 25, 2007 9:44 PM:Politically correct wars cannot be won. I could repeat stories I've heard from WW11 vets and how they took out the "insurgents" (enemy) during that war but I don't want to see 80-year-old men in shackles. BTW we WON that war. War is Hell and conventionally fighting insurgents in straight jacket fashion doesn't work. It is hard for me to believe the "civilian" was as innocent as the enemy wants us to believe. I could be wrong. Unfortunately, we will most likely never know the real/whole story.

to Amazed wrote on Jul 26, 2007 9:12 AM:You have framed it in a new and powerful manner with your rhetorical question. It isn't often that you read something creative or new in these comments.

TXguy wrote on Jul 26, 2007 11:23 AM:Amazed: While I personally hope that these Marines are set free, that is a good analogy, and a very good point. War is Hell: again, I agree with the statement regarding WW2, but to play devils advocate, we also segregated our military, bombed the hell out of German and Japan cities with civilian casualties, and did some messed up stuff then too. I emphasize the "Devils Advocate" there.

Brother Of Pennington wrote on Jul 26, 2007 11:28 AM:To Amazed, you make a dubious comparision in placing policeman and Marines in the same category. It's not unusual for you to do that, as people who try and wrap their heads around this case, go to what they understand and the closest that they can come to is, comparing Marines to American Policeman in both standards and environment. The Marines in Hamadania were in war zone, being blown up daily, ducking sniper fire on the regular, and watching insurgents they captured, let out by an atrocious Iraqi penal system. An American policeman may possess a job that is dangerous, but let's not make the distinction here like we're talking about apples and apples. It's imperative in this case that you look at what these men were going through and what they had already gone through(on previous tours). This is what the jurors were taking into account when they decided to release Thomas, and hopefully they will do the same for the others.

Brother Of Pennington wrote on Jul 26, 2007 11:50 AM:To Embarrassing, by the truth coming out do you mean that the death of this man lead to less losses of our Marines in the town of Hamadania, because that has been testified to by Marines who were there after this incident took place. Oh and by the way, the court record states they don't have the first clue who this guy was, innocent or not. We do know that on the heels of his death that Sniper attacks and IED's were reduced greatly in the town = greatly reduced amount of our Marines dying and being dismembered. I suppose you just point to this as coincidence, or maybe, just maybe, the loss of this man's life allowed for many more Marines to come home to their families, including the P8(Just ask Thomas how may times he was blown up). Check your facts before you launch into your diatribes from the cheap seats. Since this war has started we've dropped bombs on buildings to kill high level targets all the while knowing these blasts would also be taking out non-combatants and even children. No one makes a single stink when this happens. The P8 kill a man, who may or may not have been an insurgent, and the town's attacks on Marines go way down, and everyone can't wait to call it an atrocity.

Tom wrote on Jul 26, 2007 1:28 PM:If a relative of Awad came here and snatched a citizen at random, off the streets of Oceanside and bound and shot him or her, to avenge their family honor, would everyone say, "well war is hell, what do you expect" and be satisfied with a court, giving them a sentence of "time served".

To Please Tell Me wrote on Jul 26, 2007 1:33 PM:NO the death penalty HAS been dropped. THANK GOD. And there is NO WAY Sgt. Hutchins is going to be convicted to life in prison. Sgt. Hutchins is such a good man, it's sad all of you portray him over the media when I know his on personal level. My Friend, My Marine, Sgt. Hutchins will be released.

Brother Of Pennington wrote on Jul 26, 2007 2:51 PM:Tom, you know the man who was killed is Awad? The Judges from Thomas and Magic's cases called, and they said we don't have the first clue who the P8 killed. I believe the government's mantra to the media has been, "innocent, crippled, Iraqi father of 12." Weird isn't it how the courts ruled instantly in both cases that they don't know who this guy was, and that the prosecution, in arguing these cases, cannot in any way refer to the dead man as Awad? So who was this man? We know he lived next door to a man who goes by the nickname, the Prince of Jihad. We do know for a fact that the IED and Sniper attacks that had been plaguing our Marines In Hamadania for a very long time suddenly came to nearly a halt after this man was killed. So he lives next door to the biggest Terrorist in the town, and attacks on OUR TROOPS recede after his death. Hmm, you the land of coicidence gets murkier by the day. Tom, would you have rather the insurgent lived and some dozen to two dozen more Marines came home in a pine box or with limbs missing? At least then we were fighting the war legally, right? *sarcasm off

AW4cryinoutloud wrote on Jul 26, 2007 9:01 PM:To flip flopper: It wasnt me at 10:29AM on the 25th. It was the Insurgent Blogger again.

AW4cryinoutloud wrote on Jul 26, 2007 9:16 PM:To John1: Thanks; you're right. It wsn't me. Insurgent Blogger is back again. I know that 'Brother of Pennington and Rob's dad also know it wasn't me.

AW4cryinoutloud wrote on Jul 26, 2007 10:21 PM:To Embarrassing: You're a selfish rascal aren't ya? You spew and spew your crap aginst the Marines and have the gall to say that I've obliterated everyone who dared to disagree? Seems to me you're pretty good at 'obliterating' yourself.

bro of P wrote on Jul 27, 2007 5:24 PM:Since you ask: I would rather that US troops hadn't invaded and occupied Iraq and I would rather that our troops didn't commit atrocities to suppress the local citizens who resist the occupation. There is a reason why most Iraqis hate us. We don't belong there and they know we intend to stay forever; we have already started building permanent bases and the largest US Embassy in the entire world, in this oil rich country; it doesn’t appear that we intend to leave or that this was about freeing Iraq or a regieme change.

Brother Of Pennington wrote on Jul 28, 2007 10:24 PM:To bro of P, or is this Tom, I can't tell. People names seem to drop away once a good point is raised. What does your omission have to do with the question I asked? You're being elusive. My brother didn't sign up to become a Marine because he had a bone to pick with Iraq. He became a Marine for among other noble reasons, to protect his country. I understand in this politically charged time you'd like to take out your frustrations against the war by demonizing these boys, but it's quite unfair behavior when you consider that these men where out their protecting you, and were willing to give their lives so that you could live yours in freedom. Is there any end to your selfish narrisstic mind frame, and can you please answer my question like you began to at the beggening of your last post.

Tom or what ever name I choose to use.) wrote on Jul 29, 2007 8:14 AM: I don't think I saw a "good point" raised; just more clap about protecting our rights. (and I don't answer your questions, on command. I don't accept that occupying Iraq and killing civilians is "protecting America" Indeed it makes the world safer for al Quieda and makes us less safe.

Go Figure wrote on Jul 29, 2007 8:19 AM:Anybody to include defense attorneys can throw out figures to make it look like awad's death saved marines lifes, but where is the proof. Are you going to just believe a defense attorneys word or someone evoiding prosecution of murder. Show me the proof AW4, Brother of Pennington, John1. The actions of these Pendleton 8 have made me a believer that I don't want my son or daughter in the USMC. At least the Army's system works, people are held accountable for their actions.

AW4cryinoutloud wrote on Jul 30, 2007 2:04 AM:To Go Figure: Yep! Anybody can throw figures out there and the prosecution has been great at it haven't they, yet they haven't proven a thing. Excuse me, but the accused are presumed innocent and the burden of proof is on the prosecution. Where have you been? The P8 don't have to prove anything, yet are forced to regardless of the LAW! So, don't ask 'us' to prove anything to you. Ask the prosecution to do its job lawfully. That would be refreshing.

Ends don't Justify wrote on Jul 30, 2007 7:39 AM: Hey AW4, “Go figure” asked you to prove the smoke screen justification that you and others love to use....e.g. Awad's death saved marine lives. Presumption of Innocence has nothing to do with your flawed logic and after the fact justification. That is really a stretch and the random killing of civilians...is still terrorism at best. It is because of such acts from Abu Graib to Hadithia and all the atrocities inbetween that we are losing almost a hundred troops a month. It was American terrorism and it ain't a-workin.

Brother Of Pennington wrote on Jul 30, 2007 12:28 PM:Sweet Jesus, this is getting old repeating myself. To all of you that want proof that what these men did saved lives, please check the court record(for both Thomas's and Pennington's hearings) on testimony of Marines who were, A. In the town of Hamadania before and after this incident took place, and, B. Were not a part of the incident that took place. Multiple Marines have testified at my Brother's hearing, Thomas's hearing, and no doubt will be testifying at the others trials too. These men state in no uncertain terms that after this insurgent was killed, the attacks that had been ongoing at a frenetic, hellish pace, suddenly came to a stand still. "Ends don't justify" and "Go Figure", understanding what I just wrote above, would have rather this insurgent lived, and more Marines died so that we were fighting this war, in a quote-un-quote, the proper manner. So there, I just provided you with proof. Testimony from multiple Marine sources who were serving in the town, and who have no blemishes on their record to potentially point at them as being anything less than 100% truthful. Do you have a response to that, or just more rheotoric about demonizing these Marines and perverting the justice system so that the burden of proof is on the accused.

Ends wrote on Jul 30, 2007 3:15 PM:Merciful Jesus! I don't believe you can justify a criminal act by citing a benefit, claimed by people who have a strong interest in defending their "band of brothers". This line of logic would dispense with any military authority and tell all the troops that they were independant free agents and to kill who ever they thought should die; and on top of that to lie and make it look like a legitimate combat situation.

AW4cryinoutloud wrote on Jul 30, 2007 5:03 PM:To Ends: What's your problem? Not intelligent enough to Go Figure how the killing of known insurgents can save the lives of Marines, OR you don't like the fact that it did? We can go back and forth into the next millenium about it but apparently you and Go Figure choose to believe everything that comes out of the mouth of NCIS and the prosecution, where I, and many others, choose to make the prosecution PROVE their allegations BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT. THAT is LAW. If you don't like it...TOUGH! Geeeze! The prosecution can't even prove who is who; to the point of not being allowed to use the name Awad in court. Don't ask me to prove diddily. The burden of proof lies with the prosecution, so you and Go Figure better get busy cause it ain't been happenin'!!!

Brother Of Pennington wrote on Jul 30, 2007 5:05 PM:Okay ENDS, just to sum up your frame of mind on this, you would have rather the Marines not killed this guy, and rather than the IED and Sniper attacks coming to a near halt, they would have kept their dizzying pace, and we would be left with many more Marines coming home from Hamadania dead or missing pieces? This is what you would have wanted? of note: I think I've asked this question over a dozen times since this trial began on this NCtimes blog, and not one of you P8 dissenters will answer me with a straight-up response, rather you sidestep the question, or go off one some tangent completely unrelated to what is being discussed.

Ends wrote on Jul 30, 2007 10:26 PM:straight talk: I believe your brother and the others are responsible for the deaths of the 80+troops who died last month and the month before and the months before. They acted irresponsibly and others have borne the price of their criminal acts. Their vigilantism fuels the fire and other real heroes pay the price.

AW4cryinoutloud wrote on Jul 31, 2007 12:10 PM:To Ends: What's your problem; did a Marine take your girl or something? You have NO intelligent reason for the ridiculous comment at 10:26PM. If you hate Marines, fine! But you might want to keep your ignorance a secret. That comment not only shows your prejudice, it shows total ignorance of these cases; much less the war against terrorism. Also; in case you hadn't noticed, there are still 2 trials to be completed yet you and your ilk had your minds made up long before anyone ever went to trial...Right? Of course I'm right. It's all there in your attitude. What a guy!...Gal?...Who cares!!!

Ends/Means wrote on Aug 1, 2007 6:08 AM: Have you noticed that AW4 reduces everything down to a gender issue and that she uses inuendo and insult as her primary response to people she disagrees with. I guess when you don't have logic or truth on your side, you have to play the hand you got and no one can argue about her gender..but then again, Who Cares?

Ends wrote on Aug 1, 2007 8:57 AM:AW4 asks, "What's your problem; did a Marine take your girl or something?" No AW4 I wasn't going out with a 14 year old Iraqi child! Why don't you try to grow up and act your age, and stop the ridiculous comments that add nothing to the discussion?

AW4cryinoutloud wrote on Aug 1, 2007 3:45 PM:To Ends: You were or weren't going out with an Iraqi child? Your comment didn't make sense. If I'm gender conscious it's because I'm gender conscious. How about that? The funny thing is that "someone" has nothing more to say than insults about my being gender conscious. Not too impressive!

Ends wrote on Aug 3, 2007 5:41 PM:Did you ever think that my goal and purpose is not to impress you? Now the trials are over you can go back to reading your romance novels and watching the soaps. Its over.

AW4cryinoutloud wrote on Aug 28, 2007 5:18 PM:I've been going back through all of the blogs and see Ends just didn't end! Ends would not be anyone I'd care to impress. I've never read romance novels but Ends seems to be very aware of them. GH is my favorite soap. Ends was wrong at the "end" of his comments. The trials were not over at that time. Such an observant guy? Whoops! Gender conscious! Gal? Whatever!!!