T wrote on Jul 26, 2007 11:59 PM:Since the court will no longer allow the name Hashim Ibrahim Awad to be used in court...(because they CANNOT prove that is who he was and do not know who he was) I don't think the North County Times should be able to either. He could've been Gowad for all any of you know. Gowad was not a suspected insurgent...not even a HIGHLY suspected insurgent. HE WAS A KNOWN INSURGENT...responsible for killing Marines and trying to kill these 7 Marines. Living in cahoots with other insurgents in an insurgent infested village that took 200 Marines to keep safe a lawyer who went over there to help his client. No one can prove this was some innocent father of 11 either, because they don't know WHO he was. NCTimes should stop with that also. Your bias is showing and it does nothing for your credibility.

MorallyRight1 wrote on Jul 27, 2007 4:25 AM:No hard evidence. No dna. No body. No accuser. No witnesses, except the accused. A handful of statements by young men who THOUGHT they were facing death. Inconsistant testimony by the same individuals from one proceeding to the next. Sloppy investigations by unqualified staff. Blatant inconsistancies in the interpretations of the UCMJ from one trial to the next. This is a war. In war, people die. Remember, freedom is not free. The true innocent civilians made the mass exodus to safety many, many months, if not years, prior to this alleged event. Why, then, was this victim's file, whoever he was, subsequently sealed permanently? What is there in there, then to hide? Stop this three ring circus. And, has everyone forgotten the horror of 9-11 that started this whole ball rolling in the first place???

YEAH RIGHT wrote on Jul 27, 2007 6:54 AM:Regardless of the opinions of whether he was an insurgent or not... still a violation of the ROE. It is still unauthorized vigilante murder. These type of actions in Iraq have never been condoned by the USMC. The "8" are not victims- they are murderers.

Harry wrote on Jul 27, 2007 6:59 AM:A politically correct war is a failed war. Islamic Fascists are the new Nazi's. A Neville Chamberlain approach won't work with them any more than it worked with Hitler. Once again: This is a war.

Veteran wrote on Jul 27, 2007 8:31 AM:The military is not prepared to fight this war. We trained and equiped our troops to kill the enemy, but we forgot to tell them who the enemy is. This is poor leadership and incompetence at the higest level. Get them out of there until the brass can tell the grunts who it is that they should be shooting at!

Harry wrote on Jul 27, 2007 8:32 AM: There is no shortage of Nazi comparisons to be made. George Bush seems to have the playbook too. He used war to solidify his control and then tramples on civil and human rights. He set himself up as the absolute power by minimizing the power of the Legislative branch and making the Judicial subservient.

Kurt wrote on Jul 27, 2007 9:39 AM:Being "frustrated, agitated and irritated" and then acting on it while acting as a representative of the US is infantile and unprofessional. It creates an environment that the Iraqis see and react to in kind. If this is an example of how Iraq is being "stabilized" then US soldiers are going to be there for a very long time.

Oh My wrote on Jul 27, 2007 10:03 AM:When he gets frustrated, someone is going to die?

My Friend, Sgt. Hutchins wrote on Jul 27, 2007 10:21 AM:He will be released. He is not a murderer. He is a marine, a father, a brother, a son, the list goes on. He is a GOOD man. Can't wait to see you Larry!! You will be home soon bud

Coffeefiend wrote on Jul 27, 2007 12:57 PM:Hey "Kurt" and "Oh My" - share your combat experiences with us, you sound like you are experts on how soldiers should react under fire. If you ever served.

Got Milk? wrote on Jul 27, 2007 2:28 PM:Coffeefiend Better put the coffee cup down! No one has suggested that this killing was part of combat. It was a plan devised by dark of night under the palm trees while they were supposed to be patrolling to break into a civilian home and kidnap and kill a civilian--they had an insurgent in mind but if he wasnt home..anyone would do...they were hell bent on killing someone.

To Coffeefiend wrote on Jul 27, 2007 2:52 PM:Right On! Kurt and Oh My sound like wannabe arm chair warriors. FREE MAGIC NOW.

Danielle wrote on Jul 27, 2007 3:22 PM:Americans including myself are so used to our safe lives and comforts being met they it is difficult to imagine the state of mind the men were in. It is an instinct to kill or be killed, survival is the only thing that matters to these men. They think of their wives, their children, the life they live in america and the need to survive trumps any logic. The culture in Iraq is much different than ours and many people seem confused about that. Above someone mentions the rules of engagement, if I understand correctly every military age male in Iraq is suspect, detaining the enemy did not get a result and we all know the Rules of Engagement along with any military order is full of gray area and leaves room for interpretation. Self Defense even when it is proactive is still self defense. These men believed they were in danger and did what they were trained to do to protect themselves and others. They have been punished for those actions as seen fit by a military judge. America has let these men down.

yeah right wrote on Jul 27, 2007 3:41 PM:To coffefiend: These guys weren't reacting under fire. They just kidnapped and killed an innocent man when they couldn't find Gowad. Wow! What values these Marines have. If I can't find a real bad guy then I will make one up! If I can't afford something, I will steal it! If the truth hurts, I will lie! These are fine Americans you are defending.

To Reyna & Hutchins wrote on Jul 27, 2007 3:50 PM:I pray for a time served sentence. Stay strong and keep the faith.

To yeah right wrote on Jul 27, 2007 4:49 PM:The man was not innocent. Get out of your chair, go to Iraq(town of Hamdania) And then you tell me who's innocent. Don't judge what you don't know. They need to rule time served for all of them, they've been through enough.

John1 to Hutch and Reyna wrote on Jul 27, 2007 5:03 PM:I hope soon to shake your hand and buy you a beer with Trent and JJ alongside.

Brother Of Pennington wrote on Jul 27, 2007 5:07 PM:To yeah right, how do you know this man was innocent who they kidnapped? That's been the prosecution proclimation, but the judges in both Thomas's and Magic's cases ruled that the Prosecution hadn't provide proof as to who this guy was. If you could stop drumming for the prosecution for a moment, maybe then you'd actually look at the facts of this case. Marines(as in more than one) have testified at my Brother's hearing, Thomas's hearing, and I'm sure they'll be at Magic's and Hutchin's hearing also stating for a fact, that after this incident occurred, sniper and IED attacks that were occurring nearly daily in Hamadania went down to nearly nothing. These attacks were killing and dismembering our men. I've posted this before but it's worth rehashing. Yeah right, and all of you others willing to tighten the noose around these guys necks, would you rather these boys have fought by your book on the rules of war, and saw dozens more Marines come home limbless and dead, or do you recognize the fact that what they boys did, saved Marine lives. You know Marines, Americans, non-insurgents, also known as your country men. Don't forget which side of the fence you live on, and more importantly just who was over in Iraq protecting your freedoms when you take your self-righteous swings at their morals.

James wrote on Jul 27, 2007 5:10 PM:When I read some of the crap on this blog, I end up wishing for the death sentence and then I realize it isnt the accused I am disgusted with it is the ones who are writing the idiotic comments.

to danielle wrote on Jul 27, 2007 5:23 PM:the ROE's are not up to interpetation nor is there any gray area in a military order. Not every male in Iraq is suspect. These are ignorant beliefs. How is kidnapping, killing, and planting evidence a kill or be killed instinct?

To "to danielle" wrote on Jul 27, 2007 6:29 PM:If it saves the life of one or more of your brothers-in-arms I think it is an instinct. Also, "black and white" areas occasionally are brought into the "grey" out of necessity. If this man was an insurgent continually attacking our marines, or in link with the "Prince of Jihad" (as referred to through blogs) the ROEs need to be changed so that our marine's lives are spared. The Iraqi's did nothing but release and re-release known insurgents who were taking out our men and this case most likely involves much more than what appears at surface level.

To Bro of Pennington wrote on Jul 27, 2007 6:40 PM:Great insight, and I completely agree with you. I’ve said it before and I’ll keep saying it, we don’t have the full story here because the USMC and the NCIS are hiding facts on this case and prosecuting the lower rank enlisted men to cover themselves. I believe the “brass” gave the squad inadequate training on how to engage insurgents, ambiguous directions, fuzzy ROE and mounted pressure on Sgt Hutchins to “do something” about the sniper and IED attacks on the Marines. The squad acted and probably saved countless US lives. After this story has been in the news for 14 months finally at Trent’s trial last week it comes out that no one knows who really was killed. Since there is no body or DNA from the body, pics of the body or witnesses to vouch for who was killed then for all we know the body could be Jimmy Hoffa? Trent and JJ are out, 2 down 5 to go!

John1 to the poster "to Danielle" wrote on Jul 27, 2007 6:52 PM:The ROE's are so poorly worded and interpretation so nuanced that they are virtually unuseable but are guaranteed to get US troops and Marines killed while trying to follow them. The ROE's are ALL gray area. Military lawyers who sit in air conditioning and go to the range once per year to qualify write the ROE's and generals too interested in sucking the nipple of the military-insdustrial complex sign off without realization.

To "To Bro of Penn" wrote on Jul 27, 2007 7:11 PM:"The squad acted and probably saved countless US lives." Enough said! If that is the case release these men immediately!

Not level playing field wrote on Jul 27, 2007 7:11 PM:Iraq is a different playing field then Main St, USA and it is WAR, and war is not a day at the beach. These guys were in pure hell and I’m sure the ROE weren’t updated to address insurgent activity. Some guy is giving orders from his air conditioned room in the Green zone and these 8 are out in the middle of hell trying to stay alive, make sense of the ever changing rules, political climate, and game of catch and release. They made a decision and it kept them alive and saved others as well. Pass judgment after you’ve walked a day in their boots.

Mark wrote on Jul 27, 2007 8:57 PM:scenerio: a body is found bound, beaten and repeatedly shoot at close range in a hole in a road in North County. The body isnt identified. 8 men are arrested and admit to shooting the victim. They said they did it to teach Oceanside a lesson. They are soldiers from Iraq. How much mercy and understanding would you give them?

John1 to Mark wrote on Jul 27, 2007 9:55 PM:Well, first of all, you don't have the specifics correct. I assume, Mark, that everything else between Hamdania and Oceanside is equivalent: Law Enforcement non existent Oceanside leadership allied with insurgents, say with Pacific Islander "insurgents". Sectarian strife, say between Tongans and Samoans, with African Americans siding with the Tongans and Mexicans with the Samoans. IED's blowing up NCTD buses. NC Times reporters tortured and killed Funerals at the cemetery bombed by suicidal "martyrs". High school baseball games disrupted by mortar rounds in the outfield. Given that, I'd say we'd have an equivalence on the surface. Is that what you meant?

Scenario: wrote on Jul 27, 2007 10:02 PM:You come home from work...you find your wife and 2 daughters in the floor, beheaded, beaten, raped. You had surveylance cameras going but the perpetrators didn't know. On your way in....your neighbor two doors down waves to you and smiles. You wave back. After the police come and take care of business...that neighbor comes down, offers his condolences, pretends to be your friend. Then you remember the surveylance cameras. You rush to view the tapes to find that the perpetrators are that same neighbor and his cousin and brother. What do you do??? We could go on with these....but you will never get it because you do not live in Hamdania, Iraq.

Mark wrote on Jul 27, 2007 10:40 PM:It is amazing to me how many ways you can find to justify what they did. Simply sad and amazing.

Coffeefiend wrote on Jul 28, 2007 5:46 AM:ONCE AGAIN THE QUESTION FOR ALL THE NAYSAYERS: Please share with the group your personal combat experiences since you seem to have personal knowledge of what it is like to be there. And just because they were not under direct fire does not mean their lives weren't in imminent danger. I'm amazed at how quickly people are branding these guys as immoral thugs who just felt like killing someone for fun. If that were the case, they could have stayed home and done that in the US. I tend to think much more of the values of men who put on uniforms and risk their lives to protect their country that those who sit safe at home and criticize them. I would welcome any of these 8 men in my home.

John1 to Mark wrote on Jul 28, 2007 8:27 AM:I would rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6.

Mark wrote on Jul 28, 2007 9:59 AM:I reject the premise that the only ones who can comment about these proceedings are those who have been in combat. That rule would silence AW4 entirely! But then again Coffeefiend is only trying to silence those who don't agree with him. (I do acknowledge that there is nothing further to be gainned in dialogue with him/her.)

John1 to Coffeefiend wrote on Jul 28, 2007 1:34 PM:Welcome any of the 8? Good, JJ is eating me out of house and home!!!!!!!!!

Coffeefiend wrote on Jul 28, 2007 9:19 PM:MARK, I wouldn't want to silence anyone; but it seems that there is an unwillingness to consider the fact that these men were in an environment few of us could begin to understand. These men are repeatedly characterized as one-dimensional, amoral killing machines who dragged an innocent man out of his home to satiate blood lust. I'm frightened that with such a lack of info on who Awad truly was that there is such a rush to judgement on the 8 by their own countrymen. How innocent was Awad if the IED incidents dropped that substantially? That is one aspect of the case that seems to have been swept under the rug. I would like to see some sympathy,understanding or perhaps even curiosity as to what the 8 were going through. From some of the other articles I have read, these 8 were doing (and well at that) jobs well above their ranks. I also find it interesting that you have quickly concluded I am trying to silence people. I would simply like to see a little more interest in what their experience was as combat soldiers in a hostile environment and less of a rush to condemn the men who volunteered to defend us.

Coffeefiend wrote on Jul 28, 2007 9:21 PM:TO JOHN1 - Yes, JJ would be welcome as would any of the 8. But since I'm East Coast, maybe I could send you some good recipes!

Go Figure wrote on Jul 29, 2007 8:29 AM:I guess the word of a Defense Attorney and a marine facing murder charges are always true according to AW4, John1 and Brother of Pennington. I would like to see the Proof of killing Awad saved Marine lifes. All I know is that the P8 has made me into a believer that Marines can't police their own and I don't want my son or daughter servicing in a Marine Uniform. At least the U.S. Army holds their people accountable for their wrongful actions.

To the "Fiend" wrote on Jul 29, 2007 11:05 AM:I don't think the vast majority of Marines, serving in the same dangerous and stressful conditions, decided that they should start killing civilian Iraqis and try to hide and disguise what they did. If they thought it was justified and in accord with rules of engagement--why try to hide it? I still think it was murder and not combat.

Brother Of Pennington wrote on Jul 30, 2007 10:03 AM:To Go Figure, maybe if you had more than cursory knowledge of this case you'd know that there has been testimony from multiple Marines during the trials stating that after Awad's death IED and sniper attacks in the town went down. Again let me repeat that. Marines who were there, boots on the ground, stated under oath that attacks went down to nearly nothing in the town after the insurgent's death. These Marines testifying were not under orders to do so, were not on trial, had no dog in the fight, and no reason to lie. Were do you gleam off of that, that we're just blindly believing everything that comes from the defense and the Marines accussed?

John1 to " To the Fiend" wrote on Jul 30, 2007 11:30 AM:1 in 7 Marines go beyond the wire.

John1 To Go Figure wrote on Jul 30, 2007 11:52 AM:Aside from the fact that you obviously have no clue about the cases and the testimony of many Marines in the chain of command and other associated units, YES- I would belief the word of a fighting Marine, especially one of 1st Squad, 2nd Platoon, Darkhorse 3/5.

Pure BS wrote on Jul 30, 2007 1:09 PM:So Brother of Pennington: Do you recommmend as policy that the troops start randomly grabbing and murdering civilians without orders and against the rules of engagement. Maybe traffic violations in OS would go down if we started a similar policy.

Coffeefiend wrote on Jul 30, 2007 1:43 PM:To "Pure BS" - your name says it all.

To YEAH RIGHT wrote on Jul 30, 2007 3:26 PM:First of all...they are not murderers!! Did they get convicted of murder???? NO they didn't! Get the facts straight!

To brother of Pennington wrote on Jul 30, 2007 3:33 PM:Coming from wife of Thomas. You couldn't of said it any better.

To Mark wrote on Jul 30, 2007 3:36 PM:Your scenario made no sense at all! Don't compare Oceanside to Hamdania. I mean, c'mon...are you stupid! These men are heroes! That's the end of it!

AW4cryinoutloud wrote on Jul 30, 2007 6:00 PM:To John1: Now I know the frustration you must feel. I have attended the trial of an INNOCENT Marine and am amazed at the amount of news that's left out of the articles here. Maybe they're only allowed to print certain things. I don't know. I DO know that, if "everything" was reported, more people would be less eager to judge. And I'm tired of the constant use of the words 'mastermind' or 'ringleader' as titles for the articles. It should not be presented in this way because all it does is fuel the fire for a rush to judgment mentality.

YODA wrote on Jul 30, 2007 9:14 PM:To Marine Sgt. Lawrence Hutchins: As Grand Master of the Jedi Order, I, Yoda, make you a member of the Jedi. Your Jedi 'brothers', Obi-Wan Kenobi and Luke Skywalker welcome you. MAY THE FORCE BE WITH YOU young Jedi, Hutchins.