Awesome News wrote on Aug 10, 2007 6:42 PM:And Congrats to Terry, Deana, Brother of Pennington and Crystal!!!!!!

ED wrote on Aug 10, 2007 6:48 PM:God bless the Gen.

Leanne & Marshall wrote on Aug 10, 2007 7:53 PM:Deanna, Terry and most of all Rob: HALLELUJAH!!!! WE COULDN'T BE HAPPIER. I ONLY WISH WE WERE THERE TO CELEBRATE WITH YOU ALL. NOW, 7 DOWN, ONE MORE TO GO!! Although, as we talked about, this is only part of the battle. The rest will be the hardest on these men. To deal with the event in their own way, in their own minds, on their own terms. But, know guys, we are all still here for you, and will be!!! You are our heroes!! And, yes indeed, God bless General Mattis!! And this family's heartfelt thanks.

MorallyRight1 wrote on Aug 10, 2007 7:55 PM:There is only one judge in these men's deals, and He has come through for our Marines. Yet, the job isn't quite finished yet. Leave no Marine behind.

There's A Lesson wrote on Aug 10, 2007 8:09 PM:Yeah ... I did it ... I at least participated in the murder of a civilian ... Can I go home now? ... And the answer is OK?! ... Why not just give him a medal and say Good Job Soldier?!

TO THERE'S A LESSON wrote on Aug 10, 2007 8:40 PM:YES THEY SHOULD GIVE HIM A METAL ITHINK THEY ALREADY DID IN FACT. THERE IS MORE TO THIS STORY THEN IS BEING TOLD OTHERWISE THEY WOULDN'T BE GOING HOME........TO ROB AND HIS FAMILY THANK GOD YOU ARE ALL TOGETHER AGAIN.

Brother Of Pennington wrote on Aug 10, 2007 8:43 PM:God Bless you all who have stood by not just Rob, but all the Pendleton 8. 1 to go.

Chris wrote on Aug 10, 2007 9:13 PM:Why bother with a trial. This is just a travisty. Maybe this big shot general can undue the deaths of the Iraqis. And for those of you praising this decision just don't come out here and talk about how we need to stay in Iraq because you are so concerned about the safety of the Iraqis because your true attitude toward the Iraqis is now out in the open for everybody to see.

John1 to "There's A Lesson" wrote on Aug 10, 2007 9:25 PM:Well, that's not how it came down, I can assure you. General Mattis made his own decisions here, and not all of them are necessarily the "Government's". JJ and I met with the General, as well, today. He feels very very strongly regarding his views of right and wrong, and the conversation is something I am still thinking about. For those who complain about Iraqi civilian deaths, Mattis does not forget them-but he has discretion regarding the P8; and for the P8 as individuals, he is making his feelings known. Read his comments on combat in his Haditha decisions to gain insight.

John1 to Rob, Deanna and Terry wrote on Aug 10, 2007 9:26 PM:JJ and I lift our drinks to you all. Cheers! Rob, you have our number- JJ wants to play video games and share a cold one with ya!

TFP wrote on Aug 10, 2007 9:53 PM:Lt. Gen. James Mattis, we SALUTE you.

Stan wrote on Aug 10, 2007 10:22 PM:The General knows his business. And it is good business, as well as moral, to free members of the military who are on the bottom of the stack, taking the heat for higher ups, as well as we in civilian life. It is good business. You want people enlisting in the Marines? Don't drag them through the mud. The same goes for other members of the Armed Forces.

Vietnam Jughead wrote on Aug 10, 2007 10:50 PM:Thanks Lt.Gen. Mattis. One more,. please

TFP wrote on Aug 10, 2007 11:03 PM:To John1 and Stan: Semper Fidelis

AW4cryinoutloud wrote on Aug 10, 2007 11:14 PM:Praise the Lord and Pass the Ammunition! I'm "almost" speechless. This General takes a bended knee to NO one. Hey, Brother of Pennington! For months you did your brother proud. You were awesome. All my best to your family.

AW4cryinoutloud wrote on Aug 10, 2007 11:15 PM:Thank you General Mattis. Don't forget the Last Man Standing.

Jimmy the III wrote on Aug 11, 2007 12:57 AM:This General needs to quit acting so quickly and handing out pardons like candy and consider what he is doing in his dispatching lower sentences by honoring Islamic justice to some degree since the crime was committed in Iraq and Islamic Nation. Other Islamic nations are watching what American justice is and is it real. And thus the families of those that were killed needs to be consulted as to degree of personal punishment to be vetted out, or alternatives like recompense, public service, remembrance, remorse, social and community service and tribute that must be made by each offending soldier prior to any reduction in time of sentences. This General needs to go to the Iraqi neighborhood, sit and have coffee or tea with the affected families, listen to the family members and hear their real feelings of a real life that was taken, this General who said that �shooting people can be fun�, this General needs to listen to the people in the neighborhood and village about those who were executed and their dreams and wishes for their village, then and only then proceed to consider sentences. If these soldiers had personal messages of sorrow or apologies or some form of personal tribute that the General could carry even better but that would be the convicted soldiers choice. If he hasn't done these things he has insulted these Arab peoples and should not be in command as he is endangering our nation as Arab culture operates by respect as every American soldier in Iraq and the Middle East will bear the brunt of this generals actions for years to come. This General does not have to agree but he has to show respect and reverence to memory and the community, if he did do these things this would breed good will beyond bounds for years to come for the Corp and for the Nation, for the Soldiers and himself. But he is giving out to many releases to fast without adequate consultation and respect that will hurt our frontline soldiers in the end. He does not live in a vaccuum. These are my opinions and that and a buck might get a cup of warm tea. General Mattis consider seriously the international complications of your actions, we know the potential results, the Arab culture only wants to see you have shown the respect as most any student of Islam and the middle eastern society and history knows. There is the power of forgiveness in Islam but there must be steps towards such forgiveness that must be taken. Few have been publicly been shared if any have been done. You as a leader must publicly take them and show honor and respect, if you don't Islamic justice can go sideways, and you know what that means and how it can affect our troops. Stop your march, fly to Iraq, and personally take those steps. Show you are an honorable and respectable man.

futuremomofawarrior wrote on Aug 11, 2007 3:17 AM:Many prayers of thanks to God and Lt. Gen. Mattis. Mattis has heard many hours of testimony and his decisions have not been made lightly. I pray that Hutchins will be home with his family soon. We have been there since the shackles were put on without charges and we will be here till the 8th brave warrior is freed. Thank you againg Lt. Gen. we will be at the gate tomorrow to show our support and thanks. (One more please!) Lt. Gen. you have just helped ensure that our brothers and sisters fighting as we speak and our future warriors can serve their country with much more confidence than had this gone the other way. This also speaks volumes to all of our Veteran warriors who have seen much horror in war and know what these 8 have been through. God Bless America and her defenders PAST, PRESENT, and FUTURE

Marine Mom wrote on Aug 11, 2007 4:37 AM:To those who are very obviously not of a military background and who do not have the faintest idea of how things work in Iraq, orders come from the TOP. These heroes take the heat for decisions coming from way, way above their rank. Before you make such uneducated remarks, talk to someone who has been there...or better yet, why don't you enlist and serve your country?

Coffeefiend wrote on Aug 11, 2007 5:37 AM:Hello Pennington Family, I'm overjoyed for you and wish you all the very best. Mrs. MW from MA

Randy wrote on Aug 11, 2007 6:15 AM:It is reassuring to know that the bedrock principle that all men are created equal can be waived by the whim of any American General!

BethinTexas wrote on Aug 11, 2007 7:09 AM:Best news I have heard in a while! Hugs to Rob, Deanna, Terry and Crystal! To the nay sayers... you don't have the whole story. The general does. Do not assume you do. My thoughts are with Hutchins...until they all come home.

John wrote on Aug 11, 2007 7:27 AM:Considering the lack of fairness the insurgents demonstrate towards American forces, there is NO REASON THAT ANY OF THESE MARINES SHOULD HAVE HAD TO GO THROUGH WHAT THEY HAVE HAD TO! THEY WERE TRAUMATIZED ENOUGH! I am glad to see the general has brought some level of sanity to all this!

kalreporter wrote on Aug 11, 2007 7:40 AM:To There's a Lesson: Have you been to war? I can only say by you comments that you haven't. Why don't you go spend 21 months over in the sandbox. Rob, Terry, Deanna, I am so happy for all of you and for all the other Pendleton 8. They make me even more proud than I already am to be a MARINE MOM. You are all my heroes. God Bless you all.

mark wrote on Aug 11, 2007 7:49 AM:I am relieved that finally there is not a politically correct General who is looking after the Marines that have to make split second life or death decisions in a very difficult environment. Is about time someone stood up for the brave men and woman who do the actual fighting.

Mary wrote on Aug 11, 2007 7:50 AM:Decisions like this are just more fuel too support the enemey's assumption that we do not treat muslims fairly before the law. This will actually make our Marines still in harms way less safe as well as inspire home grown terrorists. I agree that 8 yers for a young Marine who was just following orders is too much but I hope to God they throw the book at the Sgt Hutchins. This young Marine was put into a situation where he had to decide if this was a lawful order and he did not make the right decision. That is his real crime and that is what he should have been charged with not murder.

John Murtha wrote on Aug 11, 2007 8:11 AM:Owes ALL of these Marines an Official Apology, or He Should RESIGN! Murtha's a Disgrace to Our Corps and has broken the Tradition of a Band of Brothers. Shame on Murtha!

Tyler wrote on Aug 11, 2007 8:33 AM:We need to quit demonizing our Marines and military as a whole. By singling out a group of people who perform a job not many of us want to do (and I'm guessing that many who call this a "travesty" fit into that category) we are helping the enemy fight our own people. We may not agree on war, going to war, or even continuing this war, but we are in it, and we need to be committed to winning it just as the enemy is on the ground. Only then will we have the initiative to succeed. Thank you General Mattis, Semper Fidelis.

MarineMom wrote on Aug 11, 2007 8:36 AM:I'm so happy for Rob & his family!...thank you Gen. Mattis!Prayers have been answered!

Oside Gurl wrote on Aug 11, 2007 8:46 AM:Amen

Al wrote on Aug 11, 2007 8:58 AM:I would like to address this response to There's a Listen Here. [Personal attack deleted] These are Marines not soldiers. There's a big difference but I must conclude that you have never been in the military and have never served your country. Otherwise, you wouls know the difference and not show your stupidity. Furthermore, you have never seen combat. Don't rush to judge unless you've walked a mile in their shoes! [Personal attack deleted]

Jimmy the III wrote on Aug 11, 2007 9:07 AM:This General Mattis is endangering our troops around the world, this is the same General who said "its fun to shoot people", the world is watching and keeping track of what you do General and it doesn't look good from what is being written about your recent releases. Is this General going to Iraq and personally visiting with the families? No! Did he show respect to the victims at the grave sites in prayer? NO! Did he see that some form of recompense was done according to both Christian and Islamic cultural tradition and law by these convicts? No! Did he even visit with the families Imams? No! General Mattis you may have the power to grant the release, but the messages you are sending to the rest of the world is clear and it's not what the gingoists and your rah rah supporters think it is and it will hurt our nation and I'm sure it will be a tool used by the enemies against us. You've just played into their hands sir. If you doubt this read the editorials coming out in the arab press and the flames that are spreading across the internet world about the mere hand slapping for war crimes you gave to our soldiers compared to the punishments that were allowed to be inflicted upon other Arabs and how many Arabs are still be held in Gitmo for a lot longer for less of a charge than these men were convicted of. General you are stoking the flames of terrorism by the way you are acting. Go to Iraq, visit the families, visit communities, pray at the grave sites, listen to the people and sit and talk to the Imams then return and render true verdicts then you will be respected and the fires of terror will not be stoked.

premeditated murder wrote on Aug 11, 2007 9:24 AM:This was anything bout a "split second life or death decision" as Mark wrote. Some people defend any atrocity committed by "our side". Saddam loyalists were just the same.

To John wrote on Aug 11, 2007 9:34 AM:John, there is no moral equivalecy. We can and should hold our marines to a higher standard. Does the fact that the insurgents kill innocents make it ok for us to do the same? If you want the Iraqi masses to help our efforts, they need to see a clear moral difference between us and the insurgents. Unfortunately, the disposition of these cases is sending the message that Iraqis have no clear moral choice. Unfortunately, that fact will result in more people failing to inform, more people failing to co-operate, more people undermining our efforts--and yes, more people shooting that the marines who took over for these criminals.

What? wrote on Aug 11, 2007 9:49 AM:Hold on while I pick my jaw up off the ground. Wondering what the General will do for the ring leader.

SemperFudge wrote on Aug 11, 2007 10:09 AM:disgusting. It's nice to see our military has about as much of a sense of morality as the Taliban or Al-Qaiyda. There's no difference between what these murders did than what Al-Zarqawi did when he sawed off that kid's head in front of the camera. To all you ex-marines out there sticking up for this guys, I have a question: how does it feel to know you're "fighting force" is no different than the terrorists who're kicking the stuffing out of the american military?

Bubba wrote on Aug 11, 2007 10:12 AM:We are at WAR here are we not? What a bunch of BS

Sure, Randy wrote on Aug 11, 2007 10:48 AM:Go to Iraq and start chanting the "All Men Are Created Equal" principle and let us know what they say before they behead you.

JSten wrote on Aug 11, 2007 11:06 AM:The business is war. Its too easy to armchair quarterback the events leading up to this trial, and to take potshots at the outome. I hope these soldiers can recapture some of their lost lives. Its time to move on for the rest of us.

Shirley wrote on Aug 11, 2007 11:54 AM:Welcome home, Rob! Your parents were rocks through this all. Your fellow K brothers must be dancing in the streets. Mrs. H from NE

D&D Maui wrote on Aug 11, 2007 12:03 PM:Hooray for the guys. Hooray for Gen. Mattis. Hooray for the Warriors. Hooray for the Penningtons.Hooray for answered prayer.

AW4cryinoutloud wrote on Aug 11, 2007 1:01 PM:To Jimmy: You must have made your comments on the wrong site. Try Al-Jazeera. You'll probably get more favorable feedback.

AW4cryinoutloud wrote on Aug 11, 2007 1:28 PM:Jimmy. Back off the threats to OUR General and to America. Your Islamic Justice needs no reason to go "sideways", as you put it. It has been "sideways" for centuries. We are not talking about ISLAMIC Justice. We are in AMERICA where we have AMERICAN JUSTICE. We don't crucify our own for your culture or any other. Let's face it Jimmy; that was the plan from the beginning was it not? Make the Marines appear guilty of a crime? We are at war with TERRORISTS. To quote someone who has a lot of Americans PO'd right now: "If you're not FOR us, you're AGAINST us." Oh Mercy; Recompense? $2500.00 a pop for each TRIBAL (Not "family") member isn't enough? Fifteen months in prison and some of your countrymen turning on you isn't enough? losing everything you ever wanted isn't enough? Losing everything you ever worked your rear off for isn't enough? Losing everything you went through hell and EARNED isn't enough? Take your "fires of terror" and sit on them. Get out of OUR country. These are my opinions and not those of NCTimes.

AW4cryinoutloud wrote on Aug 11, 2007 1:41 PM:To What?: WHAT? OH! I see. You want the "ring leader" to pay a heavy price? Well, when they find whoever gave the orders or the OK, don't bet on it because it will be someone above the rank of Sergeant. I believe "that" would be your "ring leader".

Citizen wrote on Aug 11, 2007 1:44 PM:This decision is a threat to the military justice system and its independence, as are the panels' decisions. The military's independent justice system depends upon its efficiency and perceptions of its fairness by the outside world and Americans. Punishing offenders is a precondition to full Geneva protection for an armed force. If an "us v. them" view prevails so that all war crimes in Iraq are dealt with kid gloves--as appears to be the case here and in other cases--then the right of the military to police its own will be in jeopardy and deservedly so. Even Hutchins' 15 year sentence is a slap on the wrist. It looks like two standards of justice, one where the military's members are threatened or are threatening the institution's interests and another when its members offend the broader community, citizens of occupied territories, and, presumably, also to enemy combatants to the extent they're not supposed to be killed while in custody. One of the great crimes of the Russian and German armies in WWII was their mutual disregard for civilians and combatants. In both cases, civilians and POWs were killed en masse. Both of these militaries' uniforms, sense of sacrifice, pomp, circumstance, and comraderie are not worth much if that same military is a tool for crimes against humanity, the murder of civilians and prisoners, and other dishonorable actions. These things need to be punished or the military becomes little more than a bunch of self-important self-satisfied guys with guns. We are not that yet, but the alienation of our now all volunteer military from Americans and their values is at an all time high. Its bad reputation abroad for actions in Iraq (and the failure to punish them) is bad and getting worse. I know that Mattis is a very educated man, well aware of the problem of atrocity in wars like Algeria and Vietnam and WWII. And I agree that there is some symmetry in not letting Pennington stay in the can for 8 years for doing actions less bad than some guys who are now walking free. But if he frees Hutchins, the ring-leader and author of this plan, or reduces his sentence, this would be a monumental mistake and also an injustice. It would dishonor the Marines and it would dishonor the US, whose national honor depends in part upon adhering to the law of war, treating the murder of civilians and prisoners seriously, and for dealing with our own offenders seriously and impartially and, in cases like this, harshly.

Citizen wrote on Aug 11, 2007 2:03 PM:AW4 everyone has testified Hutchins gave the orders, and Hutchins never testified to the contrary. So you can prove your insinuation some higher up gave that order, or the rest of us can continue not to take you seriously. It's your choice. Rumor is not a rebuttal, and that's all the defense has had throughout this caper.

Chris wrote on Aug 11, 2007 2:07 PM:I just love how all these people justifying what the general did are the same ones who criticize everybody else for doing the same thing. This was a cold blooded premeditated murder. Period. The victim was and innocent Iraqi. But I love how these bloggers bring up what other Iraqis have done so it is alright to kill someone who has not cut off someone's head or killed anyone to our knowledge. But these bloggers are of the same ilk as those who praised our military for getting rid of those red skins (American Indians). But through out history we allways found ways to rationalize our vicious attacks on the rest of humanity.

Taz wrote on Aug 11, 2007 2:19 PM:War crimes committed in Iraq should be tried in Iraq with Iraqis on the panel. We have proven that we are totally incapable of trying our own when their crimes are against Iraqi citizens. The General should declare a mistrial and let the tribunal that handled the Sadaam trial have Hutchins and the rest of the co-conspirators.

To Jimmy the III wrote on Aug 11, 2007 2:27 PM:Lieutenant General Mattis IS Honorable and Respectable. He's shown this by doing the Right Thing with these Marines. To Brother of Pennington: I agree. 1 More to go. A Heartilly EARNED Salute to General Mattis from a Retired Marine!!!

John1 to Jimmy the III wrote on Aug 11, 2007 2:36 PM:First off, Mattis did not "hand out a pardon". He can't pardon. He can issue orders of clemency. The two are very different. In addition, Mattis is very aware of, and sensitive to, the deaths of innocents (assuming those can be determined from the insurgents). Mattis has done his homework, sat with the tribal leaders and has about a million pct more understanding of the macro and micro situations than you.

John1 to Citizen wrote on Aug 11, 2007 2:44 PM:You're arguing the wrong points. The Plt LT, the Company CO and the two Btn CO's involved took the squad and Platoon to task for being "too soft" and "lovey dovey". They sent the Btn Sgt Major, the Company 1st Sgt and other men to put it to the Platoon and squad-told them to 'raise the violence'. The Platoon CO actively talked about 'taking out insurgents' like the movie "Boondock Saints". Meanwhile, this squad provided all the intelligence for the Btn Task Force, and did so with no interpreter and 45 minutes of classroom training, little rest and hardly any downtime in 4 months. The results were either death or dishonor. Where is your outrage at the lack of leadership? All these enlisted men have felonies and Sgt Hutch is sentenced severely. So now, where is your outrage at the officers who failed to lead?

John1 to Taz wrote on Aug 11, 2007 2:46 PM:That "should be" violates these men's rights under the US Constitution and UCMJ. So your suggestion is silly and useless. Additionally, the General cannot "declare a mistrial".

AW4cryinoutloud wrote on Aug 11, 2007 2:54 PM:To Citizen: CNN's Jason Carroll reported that Thomas also mentioned an unidentified Lieutenant. Google it if you must. It was in his report after the televised interview 6 months ago. I've mentioned it before. Seems you may have a problem with selective memory.

AW4cryinoutloud wrote on Aug 11, 2007 3:04 PM:My comment at 1:41PM: NEVER try to fix eggs and comment at the same time!

Citizen wrote on Aug 11, 2007 3:25 PM:John1, there is a difference from saying "be aggressive" and war crimes. Anyone with any intelligence can understand that difference, and few other Marines seem confused. The "lovey dovey," I understand from other open sources, had to do with this squad and platoon's overall lack of discipline. That much is obvious. As for AW4's mystery lieutenant, if someone heard this order, i.e., Hutchins, Thomas, or whoever, why can't they just say his name. No one's revealed this. Is it Phan? Is it someone else? Hutchins could easily have disclosed this if he wished. And, frankly, it only means more people need to be punished since an obviously illegal order does not provide a defense to an unlawful killing and should not be followed. This is stuff Marines learn in boot camp.

Michael D. wrote on Aug 11, 2007 3:27 PM:If we allowed the folks who are upset with General Mattis' decision to run the military, the U.S. and all other free nations would have ceased to exist long ago. The fact is, the world is a brutal place and there are many who hate liberty, seek dominance over us and will not be stopped by our being nicer or more sensitive to their culture or by handcuffing our military with ridiculous rules of engagement and murder trials for soldiers who don't kill nicely. It is ludicrous to whine about the folks who are doing the work you are afraid to do and the job that must be done so that you can sit on your comfy couch and arrogantly pontificate about issues you know nothing about. It's time for the anti-Bush lefties and the rest of the double-digit I.Q. leftist lemmings to grow up and start helping the U.S. instead of supporting our enemies. As an alternative, you could wrap your head in a table cloth, go live in a cave with other stone age morons and worship a prophet who preaches the murder of everyone who doesn't live by the idiotic and repressive rules created by a bunch of miserably grumpy old slobs.

to AW4's comment at 3:04 wrote on Aug 11, 2007 3:54 PM:Most reasonable comment you've ever made.

AW4cryinoutloud wrote on Aug 11, 2007 3:56 PM:To John1: Your comments at 2:44PM; why hasn't the media reported things like this in detail? Just tidbits here and there influence the way people perceive the cases. Did I just answer my own question? I just thought of something. Seems to me General Pace said it all; "I think it's fair to say that the environment you're in certainly will impact on how you perceive the threat...So you can't just look at it in isolation. Clearly the environment does impact your perception of the threat". Well, could the Corps' make up its mind? These Marines were left to their own initiative and sanctioned to do what it took to stop the threat to their lives and the lives of those who stuck them out there in the first place. They were damned if they did, and were damned if they didn't.

AW4cryinoutloud wrote on Aug 11, 2007 3:58 PM:Will the real AW4 stand up!

Julia wrote on Aug 11, 2007 4:03 PM:Oh yes, hooray for Gen. Mattis, hooray for all the jingoistic postings! All the talk about the war, the enemy. These hateful posts seem to forget that the victim was an innocent native, the one that these proud warriors were supposed to protect from terrorists. You do remember, Mon General, you being the expert on the counterinsurgency: "People is the prize". In your reasoning, at least you could have referred to the victim by his name: Hashim Ibrahim Award, 52 years old.

Ray wrote on Aug 11, 2007 4:08 PM:On rare occasion (3:04) AW4 comes thru as a real person, not some crazed apologist for murder or a would be court reporter. On those occasions she actually seems like she might have a sense of humor and a degree of humanity. But those occasions might be the counterfeit AW4.

John1 to Julia wrote on Aug 11, 2007 4:34 PM:Julia, did you read closely the reports of the last 3 trials? The judges forbade the use of the name Awad because the prosecution could not prove identity. But I will say again that in his interview with my son, General Mattis did not forget a person was killed. He also does not forget the 65 of 160 killed in a Marine Company outside of Ramadi. He has a big job- he has to remember both.

John1 to AW4 wrote on Aug 11, 2007 4:36 PM:You speak of a conflicted prioritization and indeed Mattis himself is conflicted. He feels for his Marines so much, but also must enforce ROE's which make no rhyme nor reason. He has a hard job. Why doesn't the media report? Hmmph- that's not in line with the Party ideology, you know that!

John1 to Citizen wrote on Aug 11, 2007 4:40 PM:No, the "lovey dovey" did not have to do with lack of, or attainment of, discipline. And the example used by the leadership was to "raise the level of violence"- a la First Platoon's example- and not a recitation of the line between aggressive and crime. That's not only Phan, but Corriea, Degrossiers and Looney, too.

John1 to Citizen wrote on Aug 11, 2007 4:41 PM:If you truly believe this an incident without parallel, then you need to speak with more grunts.

John1 to SemperFudge wrote on Aug 11, 2007 4:43 PM:Huh? Which terrorists kicking who where?

AW4cryinoutloud wrote on Aug 11, 2007 5:05 PM:Gee thanks Ray. A degree of humanity? "I"m" NOT the one talking about keeping men in prison for years or threatening our General or this country with "fires of terror". THAT is Inhumane. THAT lacks humanity. Me? I'm apparently just a thorn in your side. Try picking on someone who actually has been Inhumane on these blogs. I, like many others, have compassion...for those who have been persecuted. Just because I have no respect for those who take pleasure in seeing these guys and their families suffer, is NOT inhumane. I didn't see you speaking out against the less than "humane" comment, bordering on threat, to me by James on another article. Get a dictionary 4cryinoutloud!!!

What? wrote on Aug 11, 2007 5:55 PM:No I don't want Hutchins to pay a heavy price. I want all eight of them to pay a just price. I don't care if the President of The United States of America gave the order to murder this guy. It would be an illegal order and anyone who recieved such an order would be legally bound to refuse to follow it. We aren't talking about bystanders catching rounds in a fire fight. We aren't talking about a Marine tossing a hand gernade into a house that they are taking fire from and there were inocents in it. There are inumerable ways that the wrong people can end up dead in combat when there is no one to blame for it. Capturing someone, tying them up and executing them is not one of them. They didn't even murder the guy they were after. They just grabbed who ever they could find when they couldn't find him. What would I consider just punishment? Five years and a dishonerable discharge for anyone who knew what they were going to do and did nothing to stop it. Fifteen years and a dishonerable discharge for anyone who actually put a round in the victim.

TMP wrote on Aug 11, 2007 5:59 PM:To the families of these 7 Marines... You have stood with pride, dignity, and honor beside your sons not just since the beginning of this nightmare that began almost 16 months ago, but since the day they made the choice to join the Marines. Just remember, the people in your lives that matter know you and know your sons; and they/we have supported you since that first phone call and continue to do so today! We KNOW that there were/are circumstances that are not public knowledge, and quite frankly, it is no one else's business!!! Those who matter... know. Those who don't... well, who cares what they say or think! A year from now or 5 years from now they and their comments will be a thing of the past, but your friends will still be here supporting you and your sons!!

What? wrote on Aug 11, 2007 6:07 PM:To Jimmie the III While I don't agree with the out come of this case I have something to say to you. I couldn't care less about Islamic justice or custom. What they call honor and justice is what has taken what was the foremost civilization of it's time and turned it into a primitive tribal bunch of murdering animals. So this is going to make them want to kill us? Like that is a change. They already want to kill us. Big whoop. What I care about is America and the honor of her armed forces. Which took a major hit by this miscarriage of justice. We gave up a little of the moral high ground with the actions of eight marines and a little more of it with our response to these actions.

What? wrote on Aug 11, 2007 6:15 PM:I sometimes wonder why I bother posting to these blogs. I know I am not going to change anyones opinion. So why do I bother? I have decided I post to these blogs to show that not everyone who reads this online paper is an unthinking bloodthirsty expletive deleted. In this case I am saying that not everyone thinks it is ok to murder someone. Even in a war there are rules of morality. These rules are what differentiates us from the terrorists. If we follow them. If we hold our troops accountable for their actions. IF. We seem to have failed in that if this time.

What would JFK say: wrote on Aug 11, 2007 7:09 PM:Why are American boys doing what Iraqi boys should be doing for themselves?

Support But Don't Excuse wrote on Aug 11, 2007 7:13 PM:I completely and totally support our troops, and also believe there may have been some higher up influence in the actions of these marines. However, that does not excuse what was done. If we want to be able to take the moral high ground when it comes to telling the rest of the world how to live then we need to walk the walk. That was not done in this case. In this case we have reduced ourselves to the levels of our enemy and given up our ability to separate ourselves from the animals. I do think these 'higher ups' should be held accountable for the situations our young marines have been placed in, but that does not exempt the young marines from being held accountable for their actions as well. Anything less and we continue to sell ourselves short as a world leader.

John1 to JFK wrote on Aug 11, 2007 7:46 PM:JFK got us into Vietnam.... and his electoral henchman Johnson killed 58,000 Americans to keep it going.

John1 to What? wrote on Aug 11, 2007 7:47 PM:The prosecution and NCIS couldn't even prove the identity of the dead Iraqi. How would you prove your wants?

AW4cryinoutloud wrote on Aug 11, 2007 8:32 PM:There's one thing that fascinates me about the mindset of those who want to see these Marines punished even though None of us really know the whole story or the truth. Why is it that they never give the accused any credit whatsoever for the years of their lives spent as good, decent, citizens? Sergeant Hutchins, throughout 22 years of his life, was a good kid, never in trouble, churchgoer, not a problem child, a good student all through high school, joined the Marine Corps which was part of his spirit bred in him as a child because of the respect he had for his father and grandfather; both retired Marines. At trial a Commander under whom the Sergeant served, testified about his intelligence, integrity, abilities, and distinguished service. He showed his respect for this young man by walking over to him and shaking his hand. NO media report on that, but "mastermind" was run into the ground with almost every article. Until April 2006 when Iraqi insurgents waited five days to accuse the Squad of killing "whoever"; Sgt. Hutchins had an impeccable record of service to his country and to the Marine Corps. Now he is 23 years old. I will never understand a mindset that totally ignores 22 years of one's life, chooses to negate it as if it never was, and passes judgment for one day for an incident that happened during WAR. 365 days in a year x 22 years = 8,030 days of one's life negated. This country owes him gratitude for the years of honorable things he's done. He does NOT deserve to have that negated by anyone.

To John1 wrote on Aug 11, 2007 8:35 PM:That your son and his co-conspirators killed an unknown man, doesn't make it better. Do you sneer and jeer at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier. Have you no decency? You literally turn my stomach. This particular arguement is so offensive. Shame!

To Taz wrote on Aug 11, 2007 8:49 PM:I know the Middle East is very hot this time of year and the political climate isn't what you are used to either. However, I'm sure if you tried living there for a few weeks your attitude and viewpoint would change very quickly. Your statement would be retracted by a much humbler and realistic outlook on what is really happening in the world and not just a utopian U.N. viewpoint as you have now.

What? wrote on Aug 11, 2007 9:08 PM:I don't care who the victim was. If the US Army soldiers who pulled Saddam Hussein out of his rat hole had executed him on the spot I would of wanted them to go to Leavenworth. WE ARE THE GOOD GUYS!! The good guys don't summarily execute people.

What? wrote on Aug 11, 2007 9:49 PM:I didn't negate his years of service. He did when he executed a bound man.

Mike / Marine Father wrote on Aug 11, 2007 9:49 PM:General, I and my families as well as many americans, WE SALUTE YOU and YOUR COURAGE, No other Politician would do what you had done, You are a true Marine and a Great American. You made American people proud, especially those of us who served our country in so many wars. We were not asked to be send. We were send to fight for those countries' freedom but hate American. You did great "JUSTICE" for our men and women in uniform. American finally find a person who actually belived in his MArines and fully supported them no matter what. You and your staff should be proud of what you done. Those individuals who question your actions, either have no clue of what war is all about, or they should go to IRAQ and fight for there freedom. Once again GENERAL thank you for standing up for your Marines. Iraqis are departing their country in thousands a day, the United should make them saty and fight for their country.

What? wrote on Aug 11, 2007 9:53 PM:You keep arguing that they did nothing wrong and should go free. I disagree. If executing people is ok then why not take a page out of Saddam's book? He was hip to the whole summary execution thing. Lets gas every town or village where an IED goes off. Why not? AW4 and John1 seem to think anything goes in war. They would do it to us so it must be ok right?

AW4cryinoutloud wrote on Aug 11, 2007 10:33 PM:To What?: There you go again. One of the best "negaters" around. Is your heart so pure that you can judge so harshly? I feel a chill!

Mike / Marine Father wrote on Aug 11, 2007 10:35 PM:General, I and my families as well as many americans, WE SALUTE YOU and YOUR COURAGE, No other Politician would do what you had done, You are a true Marine and a Great American. You made American people proud, especially those of us who served our country in so many wars. We were not asked to be send. We were send to fight for those countries' freedom but hate American. You did great "JUSTICE" for our men and women in uniform. American finally find a person who actually belived in his MArines and fully supported them no matter what. You and your staff should be proud of what you done. Those individuals who question your actions, either have no clue of what war is all about, or they should go to IRAQ and fight for there freedom. Once again GENERAL thank you for standing up for your Marines. Iraqis are departing their country in thousands a day, the United should make them stay and fight for their country.

AW4cryinoutloud wrote on Aug 11, 2007 10:36 PM:Awesome! John1 (7:46PM); I've been saying that for years. It is a known historical fact. NO getting around it. Oh My! Whole new can of worms. Just wait.

AW4cryinoutlouds wrote on Aug 11, 2007 11:01 PM:WHAT's with the "We're the Good Guys" routine? This is NOT a Geneva Convention war. Everyone is "supposed" to abide by the Geneva Convention. Only the Good Guys have tried to fight WHAT one considers a Moral War. How's it been workin' for us? When will the Good Guys get sick and tired of OUR troops being targets for Barbarians who have No morals or rules, abide by NO morals or rules, and spit on Our morals and rules. If this continues, the Good Guys are going to be fighting the Bad Guys here in the Good old USA!

Sandy wrote on Aug 11, 2007 11:20 PM:I am sorry no one here laments for the approximately million Iraqi civilians we killed. Can we find a General to bring them back to life? While we should back our troops, we should also begin to learn about the Arab culture we do not understand and must respect. Short of that, we will continue to serve uselessly and more innocents will be murdered on both sides, putting such Generals in comical situations.

Adding a little sisterly love... wrote on Aug 12, 2007 1:04 AM:To: TMP, TFP, John, Leanne, muh Brother, D&D Maui, and everyone else who is here supporting Rob and the rest of us (as always), THANK-YOU!!! You guys are wonderful. To Rob, who is sleeping in the next room over: Love you, bro. So good to see and talk to you again. I missed you so much.

John1 to the 8:35PM poster wrote on Aug 12, 2007 7:44 AM:I don't understand your post. Some posters wanted "the family of the Iraqi" on any legal "tribunal" (I thought those were proven unconstitutional) for the P8. My point was, how would one accomplish this? It's silly in and of itself, since whatever else, as Americans, the P8 have the protections guaranteed by the Constitution and UCMJ.

thisiswar wrote on Aug 12, 2007 7:55 AM:In this war if the killing of this person saved the life of one Marine would it be justifiable? If the killing of this person saved the life of 100 Marines would it be justifiable? If the killing of this person was “intended” to save the life of Marines would it be justifiable. My answer is yes, yes, and yes. The actions that night of the CP8 and their subsequent treatment will forever be a prime example of how political and media influence dulls the warrior’s sword and makes all freedom loving peoples more vulnerable. I thank the CP8 for being on that wall that night while I slept, at home with my loved ones, without care because they were there. Thank you CP8, thank you General Matttis. We have one more Marine that deserves his freedom.

TO AW4 wrote on Aug 12, 2007 8:43 AM:I want to thank you for all your support of the cp8. You have said things I could only dream of saying. All the supporters at the gate thank you to me being one. I only hope that if I ever need a spoke person you will be there. Now to bring the last man home.Thanks again from the front gate....Sharon

TO ROB AND FAMILY wrote on Aug 12, 2007 8:46 AM:I want to thank you for all you went threw to support us in the time of war. You will ALWAYS be a hero. I meet your mother and father at the front gate and to you I say keep Rob close to you and safe. Get on with your lives and I hope it gets better real soon. It has to you are home. God bless you.Sharon

What? wrote on Aug 12, 2007 9:47 AM:Me? Pure of heart? Not even close. But it doesn't take a saint to know that it is wrong to shoot a bound prisoner.

John1 to Rob's Sis wrote on Aug 12, 2007 10:01 AM:Tell Rob that it has been my continuing honor and pleasure to have made his acquaintance and to shake his hand, throw a joke, and hear him sing "we ain't gonna take it" when we passed in the Brig. I hope to lift a toast to him and the P8 personally.

Civil lawsuit wrote on Aug 12, 2007 10:08 AM:I think that the Awad family members should file a civil law suit against all P8 who were convicted of murder or conspircy to commit murder. Awad's family should hold each and everyone involved accountable since the Marine Corp could not. This is what is happening in that other famous case against the former football player accused of murdering his wife and her friend.

John1 to Civil Lawsuit wrote on Aug 12, 2007 12:04 PM:LOLOL!! Well, first, you'd have to establish it WAS AWAD who died!!! Then they'd have to publicly disclose what the US Government already paid them. Oh, yeah, and if all the above are done, then you'd have to actually FIND Awad's family. Then, let's see, let's calculate the assets of not just the persons you identify, but all the P8- men who as an AVERAGE, earned about 40 cents an hour while in combat, and have collectively paid out more than $1million in legal fees. I bet you have more pocket change than all 8 combined right now. Go ahead, sue.

John1 to Sandy wrote on Aug 12, 2007 12:07 PM:"The Arab culture".. you realize this is the same Arab culture who had no respect for 1st Squad because they didn't beat down on them like the Army's 10th Mountain Div did?

AW4cryinoutloud wrote on Aug 12, 2007 12:46 PM:To Sharon: Hi girl. Thanks for the kind words but I should be thanking you and all those who have stuck with these guys every weekend for over a year. I figured you'd quit after a couple of months. I'm so glad I was wrong about that. I was there recently at Larry's trial. I met Skip, Kilo Mom, a great bunch of retired Marines, active duty Marines, a terrific Gunney, a Marine who travelled over 20 hours by bus to be there for Sgt. Hutchins, the defense team, Larry and his family. I wish the General could meet the Sergeant but it probably isn't allowed. This young man has been put through hell for 15 months. He does not deserve this from his own countrymen. Yep! Bring the Last Man Home! I've already been blessed Sharon: Meeting a Marine who believed in himself and had the courage to stand up for those beliefs when he could have taken an easier path, meeting a loving and supportive family that my husband and I will always call friends, and blogging back and forth to Americans who have good hearts. I call those Blessings. Take Care. AW4.

John1 to AW4 wrote on Aug 12, 2007 1:27 PM:AW- I think it is now allowed for the General to meet Hutch. I think it is scheduled, but not for awhile yet.

AW4cryinoutloud wrote on Aug 12, 2007 1:43 PM:To What? @ 9:47AM: Thanks for the admission. Hope you weren't COERCED into it. That would be refreshing.

McGee wrote on Aug 12, 2007 1:55 PM:Sandy, RE: John1's response to you. Inorder to get away with murder or genocide, you have to demonize your victims and make it seem that their death is ok. So John1 decides to demonize and marginalize "Arab culture" and act as if the slaughter of babies, grand parents, brides and grooms, students, hard working devout souls, the sick, elderly and infirm, is like slapping a gnat. Arab culture represents a good percentage of the total population of the world. He is a really sick man and fortunately he and his, don't represnt America or Christianity or even the Marines. They are a perverse abberation.

AW4cryinoutloud wrote on Aug 12, 2007 3:05 PM:To John1: Thank You.

The Jackson's wrote on Aug 12, 2007 5:11 PM:Hey, congrats!! We are very happy for you and your family. Please take care of each other. Our thoughts and prayers for Hutchins will continue. As for all you bloggers who think you know these guys and have some kind of right to judge them, piss off. Your opinions are just that.....your opinions. Lt. Gen. Mattis is privy to all actions, evidence and has a great knowledge of what goes on in Iraq, which YOU DO NOT. He is a fair man with the guts to do the right thing. We thank him immensely and are happy for all these Marines that he released!

John1 to McGee wrote on Aug 12, 2007 6:06 PM:Realism isn't demonization nor marginalization. It's realism. If one truly wants to understand "Arab culture", then don't forget the warts. As is the fact that much of Arab culture revolves around 7th Century thinking and intellectually, Wahabbism has derailed advancement of thought in "a good part of the world". You rail against me, but your argument is shallow and immature. No one speaks of or acts as if "killing babies", etc. is akin to slapping a gnat. Go back to your old and tired arguments that were as wrong during Vietnam as now and think a little harder.

John1 to The Jacksons wrote on Aug 12, 2007 6:25 PM:Semper Fi, Terri, et al!! Motivating response! Say hi to Tyler for me.

McGee wrote on Aug 12, 2007 9:29 PM:John1, social anthropologist and Arab scholar? I think not. Historian of 20 Century American history? I think not. Apologist for cold blooded murder, that sounds about right.

AW4cryinoutloud wrote on Aug 12, 2007 11:52 PM:McGee doesn't sound Arabic; so what's with the love-fest for, and the defense of barbaric terrorists who sacrifice their own; who kill their own babies, grand parents, brides, grooms, students, hard working devout souls, the sick, elderly, and infirmed? They could care less who suffers or dies for their cause against those who don't follow their beliefs. Why the defense of them and not Americans or our Marines? Would you like to share...McGee? How in blazes would You know what represents America, Christianity, or the Marines? If there is any perverse abberation try the mirror and you just may find it.

John1 to McGee wrote on Aug 13, 2007 7:29 AM:Whatever, dude. You're wrapped too tight around your axis.

Citizen wrote on Aug 13, 2007 8:23 AM:Don't you all see that conflating the enemy--a smallish group of a few thousand terrorists--with every single Iraqi is an immoral type of thinking that leads to violence against innocent civilians? Don't you see that it contradicts the entire concept of operations which is to protect Iraqi civilians from the terrorists that terrorize them into silence and passive cooperation. This collective guilt viewpoint is the thinking of Hitler and the Holocaust where all Jews were lumped together as "a criminal race" under the banner of Jewish-Bolshevism. Communists and their crimes were imputed to all Jews, regardless of their individual guilt. Germans were exhorted to kill the Jews before they come (with the Red Army) to destroy the German nation. AW4 above brings up the familiar and tired refrain that noting the humanity of the enemy's civilian population somehow is disloyal to Americans. It is not. It is the mark of a Christian and civilized nation. A man here was tied up, selected at random, and killed to send a message. The only defense is he was from a "terrorist tribe" whatever that means, and that possibly some hidden intelligence report that none of the perpetrators had access to or reviewed showed him to be a suspected terrorist. The latter is irrelevant, of course. As a detainee he could not have been killed regardless. The Marines in this squad knew that. That's why they covered up their actions. That's why some of them tried not to participate, e.g., Bacos, Pennington. We don't kill prisoners. And when some of our own do, we should punish them. This should not be that controversial. It's only controversial because some folks in the military and their families have adopted a tribalistic outlook, where everyone outside of the small circle--military, American--deserves to be treated with no quarter or respect, even if he is an old man, tied up, without benefit of judge, jury, a lawyer or a weapon, begging for his life in the middle of the night in Iraq.

Citizen wrote on Aug 13, 2007 12:11 PM:Criminal punishment is not a matter of being "holier than thou" or disregarding the other 22 years of Hutchins' life. It's a matter of trying to rebalance the scales of justice after something wrongful and illegal happened. If Hutchins killed an American at home (or another Marine in Iraq), I don't think the other 22 years of his life mattered that much. And this is appropriate; we can't ever fully know why anyone commits a crime. We can't really presume to judge them as a complete person. We simply judge the action, and we do this because law and punishment are essential to a civilized society and to a disciplined military. I agree that it is especially important that justice in a war zone take into account the confusion of the battlefield, the sliperiness of the terrorist enemy, and the frequent confusion by our guys of enemy and noncombatant. But that is not an issue here because this was not in a firefight. There was no real confusion. This was a premeditated killing, and when the original victim could not be found, another was selected at random. There is no evidence to the contrary, whether from Hutchins' testimony or anyone else's. There is literally no extant disagreement about the basic facts of this case. It would be nice if the accused defenders' at least quit denying the obvious and defended these facts on their merits. Pennington's Brother and a few others have, but most just hurl insults at the prosecution and NCIS and the Iraqis in general. The basic actions and whether they're wrong are dismissed too often in a manner that basically justifies genocide, i.e., our guys can do no wrong and deserve complete discretion because it's a war. But if we can kill Iraqis with impunity, surely our men can rape, rob, steal, and extort from them too and this shouldn't be punished; after all, they're our boys and may have a little PTSD. But if this justifies crimes against Iraqis, it justifies all kinds of crimes against their fellow Marines and other Americans too. But since we do expect self-control in that respect, we should not in a racist manner use the stress of war to justify anything and everything against the Iraqi civilians and detainees.

AW4cryinoutloud wrote on Aug 13, 2007 1:49 PM:To Citizen: I pray you never are a juror. God help anyone who hasn't been PROVEN guilty of anything. God help anyone who should be given leniency. God help ANY ONE!!!

Citizen wrote on Aug 13, 2007 2:13 PM:Here's a hint as to your defective moral reasoning kids: Jack Nicholson's character in A Few Good Men is not one of the good guys. Schindler, not Amon Goeth, is the good guy in Schindler's List. In Platoon, Sgt. Barnes is not the good guy, even though he acted much like the murderers in Hamdania. If anything, the movie Breaker Morant shows some of the moderately complicated issues involved here, but those guys did a bad thing too, and unlike these guys, actually were executed for it. So, was the British empire in 1900 politically correct?!? I don't think so. I don't think these guys deserved the same punishment as they would in a civilian matter for obvious reasons, but 1-2 year sentences hardly sends the right message.

What? wrote on Aug 13, 2007 3:23 PM:Well said Citizen. Right up to "hardly sends the right message" I don't think justice is about sending a message. It is about punishing amoral actions. It is also about protecting everyone else from people who refuse to live in a civilized manner. We have been punishing murders for centuries and still murders kill. Hey AW4cryinoutloud all CP8 have been convicted of involvement in this murder. Whether by plea agreement or Jury. That is as close as we will ever get to PROVING what happened. Which is close enough for me. I find your unquestioning suport of the Corps and specifically the CP8 an interesting contrast to your contempt of the Corps justice system.

McGee wrote on Aug 13, 2007 3:35 PM:You are fighting the good fight Citizen and you make perfect sense. I am worn out but "carry it on".

John1 to Citizen wrote on Aug 13, 2007 3:46 PM:Actually, you've several of the extant facts incorrect.

AW4cryinoutloud wrote on Aug 13, 2007 4:15 PM:Sending The Right Message! That's what the Prosecutor said. Where is it in Any book of law concerning sentencing, or in the UCMJ, that sentencing is to be decided To Send the Right Message? Seems to me that someone is NOT abiding by the UCMJ and is Sending the WRONG Message. Well; there was nothing new about that throughout the hearings or trials. Yep! INjustice at its best. Just make it up as you go along. Don't actually abide by the rule of law.

John1 to AW4 wrote on Aug 13, 2007 10:16 PM:That's ok, AW4- these experts don't even know that the SQ-1 PVD confinement, for instance, was adjudged illegal.They just made up the illegal confinement in the Brig, now shown in the Padilla case to have caused psychological trauma so severe that dementia now is feared....

AW4cryinoutloud wrote on Aug 13, 2007 10:52 PM:Say WHAT! What?: NO! All of CP8 have NOT been "convicted". Five made plea deals accepting responsibility in order to receive lighter sentences. Those are NOT convictions. You were correct about one thing; it's as close as we'll ever get to PROVING what happened. By your comment you seem to understand that NOTHING was PROVEN. I don't see any contrast to my support of our Marines and the military justice system. The military justice system doesn't seek the truth. It persecutes and intimidates to achieve its end result. Did you not notice that many of the military attorneys are private citizens called to defend the accused? I should think you'd find "that" a huge contrast right there. The government appoints the men who defend those the government is prosecuting. Oh Wow! WHAT a system.WHAT is fair, impartial, or Just about that? Don't worry about there being any contrast in my beliefs. There is none. I support the Marines who are being screwed over by the military