Sickening wrote on Jan 16, 2008 9:13 PM:It just makes me sick that Bush disregards nature like he does. Alaska, whales, etc... What a clown. I hope this country has learned from this major mistake of electing then re-electing this fool in presidents clothing. God only knows what he will pull during his last days in office. Quite the legacy you got there GW.

MJ wrote on Jan 16, 2008 9:26 PM:This one is a loser for the greens -- of course, their lawyers love it. One of these days we will wake up and realize that the enviro movement is amount money and power, nothing else. We really need to amend our environmental laws to require an actual nexus and standing to bring suit. I can see it now --"Fister and Fister your honor on behalf of Shamu" .... "Well, Mr. Fister, can I see a signed retainer agreement...."

Three Cheers wrote on Jan 16, 2008 10:16 PM:Whales can do the twist to the sounds of sonar, for all people know. It is a dangerous world that we live in. We are sending the Navy into harm's way, possibly helping them to be able to thwart a ballistic missile launch along the way would help us out a little, don't you think? Enough of the the crowd who won't let us drill in ANWAR or off of our shores while every one else is doing so!

are u whacked? wrote on Jan 16, 2008 10:38 PM:Get a grip MJ, protection of the environment is good for all. These are not trivial or self-serving issues.

I share your grief "Sickening"

Vista Resident wrote on Jan 16, 2008 10:40 PM:Torturing people, torturing whales and sea life... Yet, Bush says he is a Christian. I don't believe that Jesus would approve of this.

John wrote on Jan 16, 2008 11:02 PM:King George has spoke. Long live the King... in Iraq and don't let the door hit ya on the way out.

dave from oceanside wrote on Jan 17, 2008 5:24 AM:Ahh, the Disneyland mentality of putting an animals welfare over public safety strikes again.
Allowing our military every advantage in protecting us gives our military a chance to survive battle, or don't you care about our men?

BOB wrote on Jan 17, 2008 5:27 AM:I wonder what Congressman Bilbray has to say about this? He is up for re-election , perhaps voters should ask him.

secondlaw wrote on Jan 17, 2008 7:19 AM:How can it be that we have rulers who don't follow the rule of law? This president is outrageous and the rest of our elected officials should be fired for dereliction of duties. (Look that up.)The experiment of democracy is failing badly and the American public is being taken to the cleaners. Tell me, is the military defending democracy anymore?

Vista Granny wrote on Jan 17, 2008 7:42 AM:The whales have migrated off our shores for thousands of years. Then came Bush, the King, and together with the military, said "pish posh!", to h---- with the whales! Those of you who believe that saving animals and trees is foolish are short sighted and selfish! Bush is just a spoiled brat! This type of warfare is outdated anyway, and all war should be outlawed. I wonder how you could do that? Impossible with the mind set of those in charge -- on all sides, including ours. BTW - this is not really putting animals over people, a la Disneyland (see dave above)for without the animals, we will also cease to exist.

Once again wrote on Jan 17, 2008 7:54 AM:Once again the republican agenda has put our environment at risk. While fat cat GOP members smoke fancy cigars and hang out in airport bathrooms, the rest of us deal with the pollution and global warming in our increasingly inexpensive homes. What's wrong with republicans? Why do they hate the environment and working class people so much? It's because they have contempt for honest hard work.

Michael wrote on Jan 17, 2008 8:15 AM:Does anyone know when Old Grove Road in Oceanside is going to open?

Heil Hitler Bush wrote on Jan 17, 2008 8:15 AM:Yes, we have turned the second corner into a dictatorship. Bush thinks he can contravene the rule of law and be both President and Congress. Hope the courts seriously slap him down!

Bo wrote on Jan 17, 2008 9:00 AM:It seems that we should be able to find an acceptable middle ground...maybe the Navy could hold off until the end of the annual southern migration of grey whales?

Caring for all wrote on Jan 17, 2008 9:02 AM:Wow, some homosapien centric opinions in here. As if humans are the only thing that matters. The gray whales are showing us the decline of the whole environment. The fish are being depleted by wasteful fishing practices. and most of the world lives off protein in the oceans.

It is also not about not supporting the military. They can do these practices some other way. These sonar waves, BLOW the animals up from the inside. The animals jump out of the water to escape the brutal 200 db.

I would say folks who think it is not a problem should be in the water when the exercises are going on and try it for themselves!

ahoy matie wrote on Jan 17, 2008 9:08 AM:how big is the pacific for public opinion the navy cant go far enough away to drill as to not interfere with the longest annual mammal migration on this planet
p.s. while your out there keel haul Georgie the Sailor Man

Daren wrote on Jan 17, 2008 9:08 AM:All of the idiots who thought the OPD should not have a memorial service for their fallen K-9 officer should applaud this decision.

2 Dave wrote on Jan 17, 2008 9:25 AM:No coincidence that Disneyland is in republican stronghold Orange County. Fake reality land. It's not as much a matter of choosing animal welfare over human safety as it is finding a balance between our fears and our hopes. If we let our military have every advantage while destroying our natural treasures, what will they have left to fight for? Spare the sonar and save the whales.

Lee wrote on Jan 17, 2008 9:32 AM:.... under the banner of fear.

Well said. That's nearly every moral, ethical and legal code that this Administration has corrupted waving the banner of fear. And it's followers dance to the music.

Concerned-1 wrote on Jan 17, 2008 9:43 AM:What enemy uses high tech submarines to hide in canyons? Russia? China? North Korea? Who, exactly, are we so afraid of that we need to keep pumping money into high-tech weapons that we never use. I saw that high tech Iranian nave on TV. Better get out the sonar.

San Diegan wrote on Jan 17, 2008 10:09 AM:I understand the debate here, and the differing points of view on this issue.

To me, it comes down to this - what is the point of defending America if, by doing so, we destroy what makes this such a wonderful place to live?

Studies have shown the Navy can do these exercises just as well without this type of sonar, and this is really just for their convenience, not necessity. By helping destroy our oceans they are attacking, not defending, our nation, something which is profoundly unpatriotic.

And, by ignoring the law, the President is acting more like a dictator than an elected official - something which is profoundly undemocratic.

Whatever your point of view on the issues, the disregard for the process of democracy is profoundly disturbing.

It is Funny wrote on Jan 17, 2008 10:30 AM:The Environmentalist stop our water for the delta smelt, close off parts of the desert due to the milk weed which by the way grows all over Mexico, doesn't want the "renewable" power lines to us per their demands now do not want our country protected.
Environut terrorism and us normal folks put up with it. These folks and the ACLU should pack up and move to Iran, Russia, China or ??? where they can practice their wares in peace. Call Bush what you want but no attacks in the US since he took office. Thank you for keeping me and mine safe!

dave from oceanside wrote on Jan 17, 2008 11:03 AM:Before you start telling the navy how to do their jobs you might want to talk to someone who has experience in interpreting sonar readings.
I'm no expert at it but I believe it takes many hours of practice to understand what it is your hearing on sonar.
And Iran does have attack subs complements of Russia.

To - It is Funny wrote on Jan 17, 2008 11:04 AM:You simplistic view of either or is typical short sighted behavior...You live in the NOW. My point is that there is balance to EVERYTHING. GW has shown that he sees this planet as nothing but a resource that to be exploited for benefit AT ALL COST. I won't even get into his behavior as a quasi dictator. You feel safe? Look at TSA, CIA, FBI and NIA. Still, there is not cooperation or connection between these agencies...STILL. We are not safe.

Proud Officer wrote on Jan 17, 2008 11:49 AM:"It is Funny" wrote:

"Call Bush what you want but no attacks in the US since he took office."

Very odd - I seem to remember something taking place on September 11, 2001, in New York, Washington DC and Pennsylvania which was an attack on the US.

I'm one who believes that we can keep our country safe and protect its valuable resources, such as the wildlife. And sonar training can, indeed, be done in safer ways that this.

I.E. It is Funny wrote on Jan 17, 2008 12:15 PM:You are correct I failed to mention 9/11 which was planned and set up long before Bush became President. Since, nothing on our ground has happened. Proud Officer if you had a "safer" and "better" way to test or do things you wouldn't be here commenting on a blog. You would be enoying your millions of dollars. To, to it is funny, haven't seen Bush tear into resources as you say. Alaska where we should be drilling, we aren't, off the coast we should be but aren't so in short think for youirself and read the facts, not just what the Bush haters say. Do I feel safe, nope, because it looks like we will have a Dem President to go along with the do nothing, retreat, run and hide Dem controlled Congress.

secondlaw wrote on Jan 17, 2008 12:29 PM:To It is funny, 9-11 was an inside job. Don't believe me? Watch Terror Storm by Alex Jones.

Concerned-1 wrote on Jan 17, 2008 12:46 PM:I just find it ironic that we can have the all this military technology and we can't use it because we are no longer fighting that kind of war. It's like we still have the Cold War mentality. I'm all for supporting the military and supplying them with the best tech possible, but honestly do you really think we are under threat by nuclear submarines? I'm against the damage this testing might do to the envronment and I opposed to throwing dollars away on something we don't need.

Vista Resident wrote on Jan 17, 2008 12:48 PM:I understand that the only countries that have subs that can avoid detection with passive sonar are France, England, and Russia. Do we really need to defend ourselves against Russia these days with this type of sonar?

I heard a senior congressman say on CSPAN some time ago that a high-level Russian told him that if Russia wanted to get us they would use electro-magnetic warfare (that just makes all our electronic stuff not work). So, why would they need subs to attack us? That would be their suicide.

Meanwhile, anyone can walk across our Mexican border with a dirty bomb. And, China is destroying the dollar with the trade deficit.

I've also read that SURTASS LFA (Surveillance Towed Array Sensor System (SURTASS) Low Frequency Active (LFA)) primarily benefitted the Carlyle Group. The Carlyle Group is the same group that the Bin Ladens and the Bush family had significant investment in prior to 911 -- and which is connected to members of the current Bush Administration. So, this is politics right before an election.

Sounds Sane To Me wrote on Jan 17, 2008 1:19 PM:Thank God that a Voice of Reason was heard on this one! Especially considering that China is Expanding their Submarine Fleet

That's right wrote on Jan 17, 2008 1:29 PM:Chaney and Powell were seen parachuting out of one of the airliners before it hit.
PLEASE!!!

Proud Officer wrote on Jan 17, 2008 1:36 PM:It Is Funny wrote:
"Proud Officer if you had a "safer" and "better" way to test or do things you wouldn't be here commenting on a blog. You would be enoying your millions of dollars."

I'm afraid that you appear not to understand the technologies and advances involved, and the issues here, sufficiently to pass comment like this.

It is possible to use detection methods other than this frequency of sonar in ways that do not cause horrific and fatal brain hemmorhaging in whales due to sudden surfacing. That our Navy would prefer not to do so when practicing is because of habit and not national need or security.

ed wrote on Jan 17, 2008 1:46 PM:Seems to me Bush was reading My Pet Goat at an elementary school and sat frozen for 10 minutes when he was told we were under attack on 9/11.

He should have been escorted out of the White House that day.

Escondido Reader wrote on Jan 17, 2008 1:53 PM:"Vista Resident" is on-target. There is no clear need for that kind of sonar in those exercises, and no clear need to do those exercises where the whales are. After all, the exercises could be conducted in many other locations. It's not like the Navy has no other choices.

Now that Bush is a lame duck and out of favor with his party, he can do favors for friends without caring what anyone thinks. We're going to see a lot more of this kind of action, where he utterly disregards the courts and anyone else he doesn't like, and does favors for friends. There will likely be a number of rather questionable presidential pardons. It's what lame ducks do.

John wrote on Jan 17, 2008 1:53 PM:Right on Proud Officer!! Thank you for serving AND speaking out. to It's Funny - they are laughing at you - not with you.

to It is Funny wrote on Jan 17, 2008 2:00 PM:Condi and W were briefed 5 weeks prior to 9/11 with the report titled: "Bin Laden determined to attack inside the U.S." but Condi went shopping for shoes and W went mountain biking. Google it. Since then W has kept the borders open for 6+ years. And he's your hero?

secondlaw wrote on Jan 17, 2008 2:25 PM:I love how you shut down the comment page with a condescending post against the Democratic Party. The guy can't even spell Democrat!. 9-11 was an inside job and the media is controled you prove it. Have a nice day.......

Gray wrote on Jan 17, 2008 2:44 PM:BU----sh
Nothing but Bush. Apparently he is the king and anything he says goes...right or wrong. The king has spoken DEATH to the whales,dolphins and any other marine life that gets in the way of whatever cause he says so.

I wonder what the world is going to be like after we destroy all animal life and feast on delicious cloned FDA approved meat. AS we protect only people's needs and not animals needs.....hmmmm Yeah sure let's go down to the lifeless ocean and reminace about what seagulls used to look like the good old days when dolphins could be seen jumping waves and we ate fish from the sea not farm raised or mercury ridden. Nahh animals are not important only Bu----sh's decisions are. Isn't he the same guy that participated in canned hunting in Texas. Shooting fenced in exotic animals..

I don't think he should be making decisions anymore.

Oh and while you're at let's shoot wolves from helicopters/planes cause these guys can get practice with their shooting skills from moving arial positions.

Thanks Proud Officer wrote on Jan 17, 2008 3:15 PM:for the info. This is great stuff. Because of habit the Navy doesn't mind killing all the whales that continue to wash up on the Silver Strand and Pt. Loma. Interesting.

Oops, Forgot Condi wrote on Jan 17, 2008 3:20 PM:She was parachuting to in her new shoes.
Again say what you want since 9-11 no attacks on American soil. Bring the troops home like some want and the fight will follow.

If it wasn't... wrote on Jan 17, 2008 3:28 PM:the whales, it would be a bird or a worm or a fish. Don't you folks get it? It won't matter. Vista Granny is a perfect example of the type of folks that put these arguments together in the first place. They hate the military and believe that if we didn't have a military we would not need to defend ourselves. Then they use the very same emotions that they accuse the opposition of using. Who do you think is doing the studies that say the training isn't needed? How long has the Navy been training around this canyon? And the whales keep coming back every year. If it was killing them or maiming them so terribly, don't you think this would have changed? They're population has grown 10000 fold! San Diegan is right to a certain extent, but on the other hand there are a bunch of folks in this world whose goal it is to make sure the US isn't a great country, or even a country at all! If they had their way, we'd be the ones dead or maimed, and it's because of situations like this that they are ever more convinced that we JUST DON'T GET IT. If decisions like the judges persist, the whales will live a lot longer than the US will.

After 9-11 wrote on Jan 17, 2008 3:59 PM:No one would want attack now. They hated us because we were free - now we are not. The troops don't keep us free - that is an individual responsibility. The troops in Iraq are just burning through our taxes and saving face for the Bush regime.

Back to reality wrote on Jan 17, 2008 4:06 PM:What do troops in Iraq or 9-11 have to do Bush squawshing the protection of our natural resources? Get back on subject please. Nothing justifies terrorizing and trashing the planet to defend against imagined boogey men. Not even a "war on terror." Bush was wrong to over-rule the judge.

Argh! wrote on Jan 17, 2008 4:07 PM:More blubber from Bush.

2 Three Cheers wrote on Jan 17, 2008 4:08 PM:Are you from the Bronx?

Biologist wrote on Jan 17, 2008 4:22 PM:"If it wasn't" wrote:

"How long has the Navy been training around this canyon? .... They're (sic) population has grown 10000 fold!"

Could you show me the studies that prove that there are 10,000 times more whales in the ocean canyons around San Diego since the Navy began sonar testing? I find this simply unbelievable, which of course casts doubt on the rest of the statements you make.

You can love the military, recognize the need to defend the country, AND recognize the need to defend wildlife. We can do it all, folks! And that is what the democratic process of law is for. What we are seeing today is a needless flouting of the law, and of common sense.

Unless, of course, I am wrong, you are correct, and sonar actually makes whales breed like crazy so that there are actually ten thousand times more of them...

Karl wrote on Jan 17, 2008 4:29 PM:Unbelieveable. The hatred for Republicans and GWB specically transends what is good for all of us. I am dumbfounded.

bushland wrote on Jan 17, 2008 5:22 PM:And what should one expect from the bush crime family and criminal regime? It's just another broken law and what are laws to criminals? IMPEACH the war criminals, each & every one!!!

2 Karl wrote on Jan 17, 2008 5:32 PM:Dumbfounded? Really. After over 7 years of having Bush's radical conservative agenda ram rodded down America's throat, after our nation's reputation and dignity have been sullied and drug through the mud, after anyone who might have a modertate to liberal view on issues has been bullied and bashed... you are dumbfounded????!!!! I guess I'm dumbfounded that you are dumbfounded. For every action, there is a reaction. Just think about it a little harder Karl and maybe it won't seem so unbelievable.

Good for you wrote on Jan 17, 2008 5:39 PM:What is good for us all according to Krumudgeon Karl? To unite behind Bush? To shut up and follow orders? To bind our hands and cover our eyes with the lies and deceit from the Whitehouse? To sit idly by as our resources, our freedoms and our pride is squandered away? I say nay nay. It's not that we HATE Bush Karl - it's more like we know he has to be put back in the cage before he messes on the carpet anymore. THAT would be good for us all.

Analogist wrote on Jan 17, 2008 5:47 PM:This situation reminds me of the guy who wanted to save his house from the roaches he believed could be lurking in the basement. He set off bug bombs in the house and came back to find his dog and cat were dead. "Well honey," he told his wife, "At least the roaches won't get us." The Navy has a record of carelessness on environmental issues. Bush has a record of wrecklessness on most issues. Neither should be making decisions on wildlife issues.

Roy wrote on Jan 17, 2008 5:59 PM:The Dems hate what they haven't beaten.They lost two elections and they have been impotent and ineffective against Bush since they took over Congress. And now you can see that they care less about the safety and training of our naval fleet and care more about the sacrifice of a few whales and dolphins.People that CARE about other people would gladly rather put the welfare of people over the welfare of whales and dolphins. This is a non issue. I have not read anywhere that this is leading to the extinction of any of the ocean's mammalian species. This is more about a bunch of anti military wackos that seek to further their agenda to weaken our military that they view as the true threat to world peace.

Reardon wrote on Jan 17, 2008 7:11 PM:I'll start to believe the horror stories when we see hundreds of whales beached during exercises. If we don't, then all of these terrible enviro-warnings will be shown to be from whacked-out enviros. Then they will get smarter, as have the Global Warming whackos -- and predict that the damage only shows up genetically, and 100 years from today...so we can't see the results of their predictions.

Pappy wrote on Jan 17, 2008 7:29 PM:China is building its military forces and submarine and air force capabilities to astronomical proportions as we speak. Their manufacturing capabilities are far beyond any other nation’s abilities to produce goods. This could be because they’re worried about a conflict with Taiwan but I kind of doubt it. You people who think there’s a lot of paranoia and boogie man watching over nothing would do well to remember what a few misfits with a couple of 2 dollars box cutters did to our citizens and our country… and what a few well planted nukes from undetected subs have the capability of doing. You want to annoy a few sea critters or watch the skin boil off your children’s bodies in a flash of light? Thanks, but with all its faults, I continue to back and support the Republican Party. I’m too old to learn to speak Chinese or even Hindi.

Vista Resident wrote on Jan 17, 2008 7:40 PM:Any other time would be better for the testing since whale migration is happening right now. So, does the timing have anything to do with the upcoming election? It provides certain candidates the opportunity to "get tough".

Intelligence was spun to provide justification to go to war with Iraq. Our military has suffered plenty on account of that "get tough" message. We believed what they told us about the mobile biological weapons labs in Iraq. Even Colin Powell says he repeatedly asked for assurance on the intel before his presentation at the UN -- yet he was fooled. So, can we believe what they are telling us -- that they really need this sonar testing right now in the whale migratory route?

We actually are losing a war right now. China is burying us without firing a shot because of the trade deficit. Yet, there's only one candidate, Edwards, who is talking tough on "free" trade.

Leave the thinking wrote on Jan 17, 2008 7:54 PM:about military tactics to the military. The use of sonar technology is extremely important especially when China and Iran are putting to sea a growing number of both nuclear and diesel submarines. This type of warfare was not left behind during the Cold War. The potential for Chinese ballistic missile launches and Iranian threats in the shipping lanes in the Gulf provides us with the need for this technology. There have not been any conclusive data to suggest that this type of sonar is dangerous to the marine life. There is lot of unsubstantiated junk science that is spread via environmentalists on the internet. The use of sonar is not indiscriminate. It is used sparingly and when appropriate.

Reardon wrote on Jan 17, 2008 8:24 PM:Of ALL of the Presidential candidates, left and right, Democratic and Republican, perhaps only one, perhaps two at the very most, would not have made EXACTLY the same decision as did President Bush. The anti-Bush crowd jumped on this, but if any of the top three Democrat candidates wins the White House, they will continue the very same policy. A question about their support for this policy will likely surface, and their positions will be probably be known, and these enviro-bloggers will promptly move on to another subject. Quickly!

Navy Brat wrote on Jan 17, 2008 8:45 PM:As the proud son of a U.S. Navy Mustang, and a member of one of the first generations of American citizens that would have been enslaved by the Emperor of Japan but for the U.S. Navy, I will forever faithfully support the U.S. Navy. I am also a staunch environmentalist. The environmentalist are right. There is evidence indicating that sonar devices have harmed and even caused the death of whales. And whales, like all of God's creatures, are important too. what some people on't seem to understand is that the Navy is made of people too. They also know of the potential to harm whales, and they care. I'm sure that U.S. Navy will find a way to do what it needs to do without killing our whales!

peewee wrote on Jan 17, 2008 9:43 PM:Hold on Pappy, before we start with hating the Chinese were not quite done hating the Mexicans and moslems.

Just in my lifetime we've been told by the government to fear and hate the following (in approx order):

Chinese commies
Soviet bloc commies
North Korean commies
Cuban commies
Vietnamese commies
Iranians
Japanese
Libyans
American militias
Iraqis
Moslems
Mexicans
Chinese (future)
Russians (future)
Venezuelans (future)
??

If it wasn't... wrote on Jan 18, 2008 11:24 AM:"...eastern Pacific gray whale population is relatively healthy at 22,000. It has rebounded dramatically from the early days of last century when, after nearly being hunted to extinction, the gray's numbers had dwindled to between 100 and 300..."

Yea, I slipped a few zeros. How about 100 fold, is that better? Regardless, the quote above clearly indicates the whales are doing just fine. And during this boom in population, the Navy has been testing sonar. This isn't my opinion; it's just the facts. Can sonar hurt sea mammals? Yes, I'm sure it can. Is it endangering the species? Sure doesn't look that way to me. Let's see some facts that dispute this and maybe those opposed would have an argument. BTW, these are immaterial to this and don't count: Bush is bad (which I actually agree with), the Navy is evil and doesn't care about the environment(not true), or we don't have enemies in the world to worry about (head in the sand mentality).

Bravo Zulu! wrote on Jan 18, 2008 1:41 PM:President Bush gt this one right! With no proof (just conjecture), the liberal environmental wackos can stew in their juices for all I care. At least there are some of us that still care about our freedoms and our way of life and protecting these same freedoms and way of life from those who would deny temto us, even those within our very borders

Skip wrote on Jan 18, 2008 8:54 PM:I am about to go back to the Persian Gulf for the sixth time. One good thing about the Gulf is that it is too shallow for submarines. They may be there on occassion, but they are easily detected.

Mark wrote on Jan 18, 2008 10:31 PM:What is it with America? There's no gray area at all. You're either a bed wetting liberal or a right-wing Christian coalition conservative. I guess it's much easier to be an extremist than to take the time to look at all sides of an issue and make a sensible conclusion. I thought free thinking and questioning authority was all-American? I guess not.