B wrote on Mar 25, 2008 1:33 PM:This BS is ridiculous and has to stop. You can't put these soldiers in this type of situation (Iraq, Afganastan, etc.), then hold them responsible for shooting a few civilians.

Chris wrote on Mar 25, 2008 1:34 PM:I guess that our Marines can't tell the difference between children and adults. Well I am waiting for all the defenders of the military to come out here and put their spin on this one. But maybe these children would have grown up and become insurgents especially since this war may go on for another hundred years so maybe it is better to get these future insurgents before they have a chance to grow up. After all they are Iraqis so who cares.

P8Dad wrote on Mar 25, 2008 2:11 PM:"to see if we hold our own accountable for violations of the laws of war and armed conflict."
Laws of war???? What planet is this joker from. It's kill or be killed it's war it's nasty stuff get over it. My son is a convicted federal felon because of thinking (if you can call it that) like this. If you want to sit around and wait for the bad guys to come and get you and your loved ones that's up to you. There are some of us who have raised brave heroes who don't want to see that happen to you. Regardless which side of the politcal fence you sit on. They'll fight for you even if you sit in your ivory tower and badmouth them.

To Chris wrote on Mar 25, 2008 2:15 PM:It isn't that they cannot tell the difference between children and adults. Our guys are supposed to knock and say "Hello mr terrorist are you in there?"

I am a former Marine and that is a sure fire way to be dead. Stick your head around a corner and "pop" you are a corpse. No thank you. We were actually trained to toss grenades in first then come in the room shooting.

Steve wrote on Mar 25, 2008 2:18 PM:Chris... Apparently you havent done much research besides what you see in the news. There is video drone footage of the whole incident. They were fired upon by the occupants of the house and then called it in for authorization to clear, then cleared the house. The back doors to the house were open, the footage apparently will exhonorate all involved. The way they clear the house is with gernades. It is very unfortunate to have civilian loss of life, but the insurgents involved put them in harms way. I am sorry, but at any cost, I am glad OUR soldiers are unhurt. Lets not blast our Marines when the courts marshal havent even started. They are presumed innocent until proven guilty, unless you are Jack Murtha. If you are so bent on how the military is operating, join the Marines, spend 20-30 years in, get all your stripes or bars, then change it. My guess is you havent served a day. So to be defending the poor Iraqis over our soldiers says something for you.....

Former 0331 wrote on Mar 25, 2008 2:37 PM:It amazes me that people lose sight of this simple fact: This has been the cleanest war ever fought.
As tragic as any loss of life is, this is a war. We have just passed 4000 American souls lost in this war. That is a tiny number. There were battles in previous conflicts where many times that number were killed in a matter of hours or days. We don't carpet bomb anymore. We do not target civilians on purpose anymore. We have come a long way since the wars of the last century. Please people realize these facts and give our troops all of our support. I guarantee you Lance Corporal Tatum feels horrible about killing those kids, but he is still alive...

Chris to to Marine wrote on Mar 25, 2008 3:08 PM:I have had enough of your rationalization. There was nobody shooting at the troops after the IED went off wich was admitted by the leader of the group on 60 minutes. I have had enough of your and all the other military supporters excusses. There was also a comment made by another Marine that you are supposed to identify your target before you shoot. No, I don't buy your excusses. I am tired of the lies and excusses given by the military for the wanton murder of innocent people. Remember our military invaded another country and quite frankly as far as I am concerned you owe it to the people there to not kill innocent unarmed civilians and if in trying to perform that task a member of our military gets killed then so be it.

Chris to Steve wrote on Mar 25, 2008 3:12 PM:What you said about the drone and being fired on is pure bunk. Just spare me. If this was so then why did the Marines lie about the incident and it was found out only because a member of the media brought it out. Remember that the Marines said that the civilians killed were killed by the IED. Enough of the revisionist nonsense.

Chris wrote on Mar 25, 2008 3:15 PM:I know there would be a lot of spin on this one. But as far as I am concerned none of it holds water.

AOPA wrote on Mar 25, 2008 3:50 PM:This is sad!! However, I am sure it makes liberals very happy. Liberals would rather a Marine behind bars than a terrorist. Yours, A Once Proud American.

TIGMOTHER wrote on Mar 25, 2008 4:11 PM:Tigmother Predicts: Tatum will accept a deal; testify for the prosecution against the more seriously charged Wuterich and be given a bad conduct or general discharge with all charges dropped. Wuterich will be convicted and sentenced by a jury of his peers to 15 (or more) years imprisonment. It matters not what bloggers contend, one way or the other. The fate of these defendants was sealed by none other than themselves. Tigmother relies on the Corps for justice, not on the mob. As surely as the sun will rise tomorrow, justice will be served in these cases just as it was in the cases of the Pendleton 8, including Ex-Sgt Hutchins, who was sentenced to 15 years imprisonment by a jury of his MARINE peers.

USMC, Ret. wrote on Mar 25, 2008 4:27 PM:It's understandable that the relatives of those charged with crimes like these are in denial. The USMC has determined that crimes occured. All of the bluster and faux patriotism in the world will not change that. As a civilized nation, we cannot and will not tolerate atrocities and violations of the rules of engagement. We must not lower ourselves to the same standard of conduct as that displayed by some of the insurgents. These cases will go to trial and justice will be served. The military juries deciding these cases are composed of combat experienced Marines. They will do the right thing, just as they have in the past. I trust the Corps. Semper fi.

PhilM wrote on Mar 25, 2008 4:28 PM:Let's not confuse Chris with any facts; his mind is already made up. As usual, the MSM reports by commission and omission. Commit the insurgent propaganda to ground truth, and omit any sworn testimony that counters it, and shows it for the lie it is.

Chris to AOPA wrote on Mar 25, 2008 4:43 PM:Why is it that the word terrorist comes up. The people killed were unarmed civilians in their own home who were doing nothing. So why don't you stick with the facts in this case and quit talking about Liberals and calling all the innocent unarmed Iraqis that are killed terrorist.

AOPA wrote on Mar 25, 2008 5:53 PM:To Chris: I know, I know, every Iraqi that we ever killed were innocent and unarmed. Usually they are only women and children, too. Further, in the old days, when American was a great county, Iraq would have been carpet bombed to the Stone Age. Wait they are there already. Let’s do it anyway. Yours, A Once Proud American

Massachusetts Democrat wrote on Mar 25, 2008 9:19 PM:This case comes done to one question . . . were the rules of engagement, as they were understood by the Marines on 19NOV05 in Haditha, Iraq, followed?

An exhausting investigation has revealed that they were.

Make no mistake, this is a political prosecution, not a criminal prosecution. Unlike some other cases of legitimate misconduct and criminal behavior, the 'Haditha Marines' have been brutally 'Nifonged'.

Boboclown wrote on Mar 25, 2008 10:26 PM:Sounds like political garbage, and why? They were doing what they were trained to do. They could have cleared the room with a grenade, and it would be the same results. How many of our military have been killed clearing a room?

AW4cryinoutloud wrote on Mar 26, 2008 12:36 AM:It's a wonder NCT printed Chris' comment at 3:08pm, since it cannot be verified. He says there was nobody shooting at the troops after the IED went off. He also says Wuterich admitted it on 60 Minutes. Puhleeze! The drone footage was posted on the internet Chris. Didn't you see the Iraqi on the roof of one of the buildings lobbing grenades at the troops on the ground? You might want to tell your rewritten version of Haditha to the pilots who carried out the airstrikes on the houses. The firefight lasted for hours. You and TIG could care less about the truth. As long as our Marines get screwed over you're both happy campers. Verification of that is in your words.

AW4cryinoutloud wrote on Mar 26, 2008 12:38 AM:TIGmother seems to be have an obssession with one particular Marine. That really isn't healthy.

AWTOOTOOBAD wrote on Mar 26, 2008 6:23 AM:When this incident first came to light I urged that the investigation be completed and the appropriate actions be taken; be what they may. Recently, on PBS there was a hour long televised special on this action. Based on testimony from those involved, the investigators and very importantly the UAV video of virtually the entire incident, it appears TO ME, that the ROE and LOW were followed from start to finish. It is too bad that a couple of the Marines involved copped pleas since again, the video supports that the ROE and LOW were followed. Unless there is some epiphanal revealation to the contrary, LCpl Tatum and SSgt Wuterich are not guilty of the crimes the are accused. If the Bn Commander had done his duty both specified and implied, I do not believe this whole "goat rope" would have occured.

Steve wrote on Mar 26, 2008 6:39 AM:To Chris, answer this question. Have you EVER served one day in the military to defend your right to free speach as you have used so well? If you havent, shut your pie hole and listen for a minute...The veterans who are under procecution didnt take a commercial flight to Iraq, nor were they trained by Joe Blows security agency. They were trained by our govt., put in battle by our govt., now prosecuted by our govt., They still have the right to be considered innocent until proven guilty. "For the wanton murder of innocent people?" That speaks measures about your pathetic existence as a U.S citizen (that is if you are even one)if you are so bent on defending these innocent people I will gladly pay for a one way airline ticket for yourself and TIG to Iraq. There are plenty of ak-47's for you to use. Lets get a gut check and see what you are all about! I didnt think you would take that offer, you would rather attack people based off the media and Jack Murtha and thier edited versions, and think you know it all. Crawl off of your keyboard and go back to your sponging off the government and thank a Soldier the next time you see one.

Ryan wrote on Mar 26, 2008 6:50 AM:I can't believe the writer, Mark “Hussein” Walker, mentions the names of the Iraqis killed, but doesn't bother to mention the name of the Marine who died, Lance Cpl. Miguel Terrazas from El Paso, Texas. He was a young man who joined the Marines after high school to serve his country. And on that early morning of Nov. 19, 2005, he was merely riding in the back of a humvee, as most lance corporals do, and a makeshift bomb exploded, causing him to bleed to death on the streets of Iraq. He was 20-years-old.

War sucks, but when IEDs are going off on the liberal highways of California and on the one-way streets of New York, you’ll wish Lance Corporal Miguel Terrazas was there to fight for you.

Lets hope and pray for justice and mercy.

Steve wrote on Mar 26, 2008 7:01 AM:Excerpts from Chris's comments: There was nobody shooting at the troops; I have had enough of your and all the other military supporters excusses(sp); the wanton murder of innocent people; The people killed were unarmed civilians in their own home who were doing nothing; the drone and being fired on is pure bunk; Remember our military invaded another country; why don't you stick with the facts in this case.....Boy if we haven't got a real winner here!!!!

Question wrote on Mar 26, 2008 8:06 AM:Where is my free oil?

BreakerMorant wrote on Mar 26, 2008 8:35 AM:Make no mistake Haditha and the Hamdania Court Martials are political show trials designed to, as stated, "to see if we hold our own accountable for violations of the laws of war and armed conflict.”. Convictions so far (with the exception of the CP8 Thomas case) are not so much based on the presented facts, and how those so-called facts were obtained, as much as an understood “this is what is expected of us as jurors … "to see if we hold our own accountable”. In battle you do not let the enemy strike the first blow, shoot first, or try to talk him out of killing you for if you do you will die and your friends will die. If the enemy chooses to not wear a uniform, and to hide with and behind non-combatants then sadly some innocents will die. Don’t blame the Marine for a bad life-or-death split second decision, blame the enemy.
Beyond the damage done to the individuals accused and tried is the damage to the Marine fighting spirit and their almost unique ability and willingness to press the battle and bring the fight to the enemy. There are Marines, fathers, sons, brothers alive today because of the actions of the Marines at Hamdania and Haditha. This nation has become a nation of hand wringing bedwetters who know not war, blood on their boots and their best friends dying.

TIGMOTHER wrote on Mar 26, 2008 10:11 AM:Tigmother notes again the Stevething's claim to superior credentials because of some alleged military service. He attempts to bolster his points by padding and puffing his credibility. Stevething should be able to make his contentions stand alone without puffing and padding. That Stevething has NOT done. Tigmother condemns only those Marines who have been CONVICTED by a jury of their combat veteran MARINE peers. Tigmother will accept the judgment of those Marines and scoff, indeed chortle, at the pretenses and fakery of such as Stevething. Tigmother is not alone in contending that the P8 were fairly prosecuted and convicted. Tigmother refers to the NCT editorial of 08-08-2007 wherein the NCT says the same.

USMC, Ret. wrote on Mar 26, 2008 10:32 AM:The truth in these cases has been and will be determined in a court of law, not by the half-baked comments of bloggers. I trust the judgment of a Marine jury. They will hear and evaluate both sides and arrive at a just decision. If the defense disagrees with the verdict and sentence, they have the right to appeal it. That's the system of justice. There is no better. Vigilante and biased mob mentality is of zero value.

Wow wrote on Mar 26, 2008 11:21 AM:NCT you let 25 comments through so far on this story, boy your “fact checkers” must be working over time to allow 25 COMMENTS through their gates! Hey, are you staffing up on “fact checkers” for the upcoming trial? What a treat, NCT might even allow up to 30 comments on Tatum's trial.

Steve wrote on Mar 26, 2008 1:46 PM:I do not puff and pad myself, never have. Just irrated to the fact that you continue to relay your message like some deciple. TIG predicts???? Yea well your predictions are a disgrace. P.S. nct times edit from before...thanks. One thing continues to amaze me though is how we are condemning these soldiers, and you have not ever been in their shoes. I may or may not have ever served. :) Steve predicts TIG will continue to ramble on about this code and this subsection. I could care less. I do see a different outcome than you do though...only time will tell....

AW4cryinoutloud wrote on Mar 26, 2008 2:27 PM:When a blogger is so arrogant that he must relate to others in less than human terms, I suppose it's fair to do same in return. It shouldn't be surprising that the TIGthing will accept the judgment of the panel of Marines who unjustly convict an accused. I begin to wonder if the TIGthing has some official relation to the prosecution's side of the whole debacle. The TIGthing defends the prosecution just a little too much. If the TIGthing is going to claim that NCT agreed with the prosecution, he could at least give a quote from the editorial. As for the credentials of any bloggers with whom the TIG disagrees. The TIGthing isn't as ignorant as he seems. He knows that several bloggers are close to all of these proceedings; he just can't resist insults. It must be tough on him to realize that, for all his bluster and pathetic attacks, those who know the defendants will stand by them no matter what negative crap he spews. He fails to understand that most Americans are not so ignorant as to believe the military judicial system is infallible. The prosecution would be disappointed in the TIGthing's effectiveness. He might possibly have a much more positive effect on the insurgency and its followers.

Steve wrote on Mar 26, 2008 3:22 PM:Two censors in a row thanks NCT

Mom of a Marine wrote on Mar 27, 2008 8:30 PM:Oh, tiggy, tiggy, tiggy. You really crack me up. The Editorial that tig refers to...was written by the NCTimes Editorial Staff...(maybe, NCTimes could tell us how many people that consists of) and there were a total of 2 comments on the editorial, only 1 of which could be construed with agreeing with tig. Furthermore, the editorial did not spew the hate and ignorance that tig spews constantly. I could pick out a few excerpts from this editorial, and say they agree with me...Like this one...(Very few of us are qualified to judge the actions of these young men in combat.)This certainly includes tig!...or this one...(Much has been said, and rightly so, about the terrible pressures put upon these young men in the streets of Iraq, in a frontless war where foes are often indistinguishable from friends, and roads are riddled with bombs.)tig knows nothing about what this is like!...or this one, my favorite...(Hutchins and his squad mates are not common criminals. They are patriotic young Marines who were given a nearly impossible task in excruciatingly difficult circumstances.)Which accurately describes the situation better than ANYTHING that tig has ever spewed! So, tig, stop with your spewing and your false CLAIM that SO MANY agree with YOU. It is kind funny...but still...tiresome!

AW4cryinoutloud wrote on Mar 28, 2008 1:23 AM:To Mom of a Marine: Thanks for the info. I figured the TIG was up to something when he wouldn't quote the editorial. It's good to know that NCT also believes in Hutchins and the others. Since TIG blogs so much, I now keep Pepto Bismol tablets close by. His comments are just too nauseating. And here I thought I had the flu recently.

Mom of Marine wrote on Mar 28, 2008 10:23 AM:To AW4...I don't know that NCT believes in the P8 at all but unlike tig they at least took the time to consider the situation and circumstances. Just showing how tig spews to fit what goes on in her/his own uninformed mind. I will put the link to the editorial here for you. It was buried pretty well Stop letting tig bother you...just understand what kind of a person it is coming from and waste not your time on the it-thing! Don't know if the link will work. http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2007/08/08/opinion/editorials/23_21_368_7_07.txt

Steve wrote on Mar 28, 2008 2:28 PM:What are your predictions now TIG? This morning before trial the charges against LCpl Tatum were withdrawn and
dismissed with prejudice.

TIGMOTHER wrote on Mar 28, 2008 5:00 PM:For those too dense to discern it, Tigmother provides this quote from the editiorial: "But this fact seems vital: The juries that passed judgment upon Hutchins, Cpl. Marshall Magincalda and Cpl. Trent Thomas were qualified to do so. Stocked with enlisted men and officers who have served in Iraq, the Pendleton trials offered a military version of justice that accounted for the complexity of combat duty." Indeed, the jury of MARINES who cast judgment are qualified to do so and they took into account any possible extenuations or exigencies. As for Stevething's confustion, read, if you can, Tigmother's post above at 4:11 pm, 03-25-08: "Tigmother Predicts: Tatum will accept a deal; testify for the prosecution against the more seriously charged Wuterich and be given a bad conduct or general discharge with all charges dropped." Thus have Tigmother's predictions ever come true. And so shall the prediction in re Wuterich.

NOT... wrote on Mar 28, 2008 8:29 PM:Tig, ... there was NO DEAL. You are the one who cannot read...nor can you "read between the lines." The charges were dismissed! Period!Because "EVIDENCE revealed that the ROE were followed. No deal was made. And, it was announced on TV...that when he testifies he will do so as a neutral witness. That means, since YOU CAN'T seem to understand, that he is NOT testifying FOR THE PROSECUTION! He is simply...testifying, if called to. Your ... prediction is WRONG! You are wrong headed, and cannot face that.

TIGMOTHER wrote on Mar 29, 2008 1:54 PM:Tigmother quotes from the article above: "The dismissal was accompanied by a grant of immunity requiring the 27-year-old Oklahoma native to testify against Wuterich,..." The operative words are IMMUNITY and REQUIRING. A rose by any other name is a rose and a deal by any other name is a deal. Were Tatum to testify as a neutral and voluntary witness, friendly to neither side, there would be no need for IMMUNITY nor would he be REQUIRED to testify. No matter the spin by the defense, a DEAL WAS MADE. The dismissal is CONDITIONAL and the condition is that Tatum testifies AGAINST Wuterich as the quote shows. Should Tatum fail to so testify, the charges will be refiled. This is all standard strategy in criminal prosecutions. Squeeze the minor actor and use his testimony to convict the major offender.