taxpayer wrote on May 29, 2008 8:31 PM:San Diego needs a consolidated fire department. For to long we have forced our firefighters to battle fires without providing for them. All our surounding counties have created county agencies to provide fire protection why can't San Diego do the same?

cdf wife wrote on May 30, 2008 12:18 AM:i don't understand why the volunteers are trying so hard to keep their spots as volunteers. if i lived out there i would want the state paid fire guys and all the equipment that bring with them. not baggin on volunteers but come on the choice is obvious

Escondeeter wrote on May 30, 2008 1:01 AM:I suspect that a review of the witnesses the GJ heard from will reveal the usual 'professional fire chiefs' and labor union officials provided almost all the testimony.

Let's not forget that all of the fires that did the damage in '03 and '07 started in, and were the responsibility of, the large professionally staffed departments in the county. The volunteers didn't 'lose control' of those fires, the 'pro's' did. Actually, that's not completely true, nobody lost control of them. Wildland fires under those weather conditions are massive events, and whether they're fought by professional or volunteer firefighters has a really miniscule impact on the outcome.

There are certainly areas where improvement is necessary, the major ones being finding some way to keep our resources from getting sent out of the county the day before a major fire starts, and addressing the equipment shortage in San Diego City's department that presented them from fielding all the personnel that they had.

Those who make comparisons between staffing in Los Angeles County and staffing in San Diego County's back country might be surprised to discover that Los Angeles County has a number of stations in rural areas similar to ours that are staffed by (gasp) 'call firefighters' i.e. volunteers. Even with their massive budget, they can't afford to staff stations that don't get many responses.

Creating a county-wide department with gigantic administrative overhead is the worst possible use of the limited revenue available. We'd be far better off working with what we have and gradually upgrading it. In time, if the past is any indication, those departments will consolidate on their own.

Every time we get one of these events, the politicians and media go in search of a 'perfect solution', completely ignoring the likelyhood that there's no such thing. They fasten on some mantra, like 'countywide fire department' and keep repeating it like a magical incantation. They never, though, have the money to do it, and in their pursuit, they let the perfect become the enemy of the good and we end up with good and 'do-able' solutions getting passed by. The end result is nothing happens but a bunch of meetings, speeches, and posturing. Five or ten years later we have the same problem again.

Escondeeter wrote on May 30, 2008 1:36 AM:A brief example of the lack of accuracy in the Grand Jury's report:

They trot out the old claim that San Diego County is only spending 8.9 million dollars on fire protection and contrast it with the 860 million L.A. County is spending. Actually, the total expenditure of the agencies protecting the outlying areas of our county is in excess of 180 million dollars. By leaving out the budgets of our various fire departments and only counting the money actually being spent by the county, they're creating an apples and oranges comparison. It makes a nice, alarming, headline, and it's been used that way quite frequently, but it doesn't happen to be true.

To Escondeeter wrote on May 30, 2008 7:02 AM:I've followed your comments for quite some time in these blogs. We're frequently on the same page and your comments here are no exception. You hit the nail on the head here regarding the usual suspects...professional fire chiefs and labor union officials. Obviously objective here is to create gigantic admisistrative overhead that is matched by equally gigantic revenue. Nothing less will satisfy the usual suspects. I'm fed up with the argument that our solution is always to match the expenditures of the guy next door, regardless of the guy next door's effectiveness (or ineffectiveness). You see the same argument for justifying bloated salaries/benefits of other public employees. What about comparisons to our neighbors in other states, or even other countries? Nope! Can't do it! They aren't members of OUR union! Lastly, the best and least costly solution would be to NOT build in the fire prone backcountry. There would be no need to defend 'homes' from these fire storms. Just think of the money that we would have to fund other useful public projects. Unfortunately, that wouldn't serve the usual suspects' purposes either.

To CDF Wife wrote on May 30, 2008 7:11 AM:Frankly, you've got it all wrong. Cal Fire compensation is over the top, supposedly because they are 'the best'. But they STILL can't make their spotters available to the military aerial firefighters. That's just ONE example. The point is, Cal Fire is bloated and ineffective. If we had less bloat, we would have more resources for our highly motivate and effective volunteer agencies. And another thing, you ARE bagging on volunteers despite your denials. Say one thing, mean another...and think the public is stupid. Yep! One thing is for sure...you're married to union firefighter.

Pluto wrote on May 30, 2008 7:18 AM:Between now and November every Republican candidate for every office will promise to lower taxes. That's how we got into this mess with fire services, police, schools, hospitals, mass transit, etc. Cut taxes, cut services, it's as simple as that. Thanks to pandering politicians, we're on our own.

I have one car in the wrote on May 30, 2008 7:32 AM:garage with a full tank and loaded with sleeping bags, pillow, clothes, food, and water for we have to evacuate.

here we go wrote on May 30, 2008 7:35 AM:i smell it coming , they want money, so let them figure out a tax they can nail us with ummmmmm property tax increase

BottomLine wrote on May 30, 2008 7:56 AM:Phase One of Dianne Jacob's plan is twenty million dollars short of funding, only covers part of the county, and will most likely take a year to implement.

The plan from the zone 8 fire chiefs would cost three million, fully staff all the stations in the area where they're most needed, and can be ready by fire season. It could be funded out of the Board of Supervisors' latte budget.

Guess which one the unions are opposed to?

Be Prepared wrote on May 30, 2008 8:20 AM:Reality is that in a major wildfire, there will simply not be enough fire engines or firefighters to defend every home.

Successfully preparing for a wildfire requires you to take personal responsibility for protecting yourself, your family and your property.

The most important person in protecting your life and property is not the firefighter, but you.

And few people have adequately prepared their families for a quick evacuation or the prospect of staying to defend their home from fire.

The fire season is now a year-round reality. Meteorologists are forecasting extreme drought conditions for Southern California, requiring firefighters and residents to be on heightened alert for the threat of wildfire.

Each year, wildfires consume hundreds of homes in the Wildland/Urban Interface. However, the California Department of Forestry and Fire Protection (CAL FIRE) estimates that as many as 80 percent of the homes lost to wildfires could have been saved if their owners had only followed a few simple fire-safe practices.

In addition, wildfire-related deaths occur because people wait too late to evacuate their home or prepare inadequately to stay and defend it.

Action Plan, Tips, and Tools are available.

Many residents have built their homes and landscaped without fully understanding the impact of fire.

Bob Roper,
Ventura County Fire Chief
PLANS TIPS TOOLS are at Ventura County Calif Fire Government website.
http://fire.countyofventura.org/
publicinformation/publications/PDFs/
wildland%20plan-12pg-mailer-rev1.pdf

To Pluto wrote on May 30, 2008 8:36 AM:Want government to take care of you? Soviet Union tried that, China tries. Move to Cuba they will take care of you. It is not a Tax problem other then illegals not paying any. It is a priority problem. Consolidation equals a bigger, non accountable tax money eating agency with no change in their capabilities. Why people continue to expect the government to take care of them is beyond me. The fires of late, Katrina, illegal immigration on and on. Take responsibility for you and your families lives and you will be much happier.

A better approach wrote on May 30, 2008 9:33 AM:Fire educated Stakeholders (Homeowners) can make a difference.

Never enough money. Never enough air coverage, fire trucks, firefighters (Cal Fire FF nor volunteer FF).

We must try a new approach. Go Early or Stay & Defend. It works and it is policy in Australia, New Zealand, and Ventura County Calif. 500,000 Ventura County residents and 6 Ventura County cities are involved in Go Early or Stay and Defend.

Lives, livestock, pets, old homes and new homes can be saved.

The Ventura County Government website has excellent info. VC educates the stakeholders.

Stakeholders (homeowners) have a choice: Go Very Very Early or Prepare months ahead of time and Stay & Defend.

Defensible space, brush clearance, clean gutters, educating the stakeholders, etc. is part of Go Early or Stay and Defend.

No matter what your choice, be involved and make your home defensible. It will help you, your community, and the FF.

The firefighters will not try to save homes that lack defensible space.

Reminders that our Southern Calif San Diego fire season is year round and volunteer FF are used successfully in many areas of the USA.

Personally, believe that all Cal Fire and Volunteer firefighters are outstanding. They deserve their incomes, retirement pay, etc.

However, the Cal Fire organization is bloated, too political, not good.

JuanGrande wrote on May 30, 2008 10:28 AM:hey CDF wife, I would think as a CDF wife you would have more insight into the business of firefighting. Firefighting is all about jobs, money and power. nobody wants to give up any of it. Volunteers usually are bucking for a cush full time job, giving up the volunteer jobs gives them less chance to land that cush job.

Penny-wise Found-Foolish wrote on May 30, 2008 11:37 AM:Bottom line - Most of San Diego county's right wing tax base is just toooooo cheap to care until the fire (or any other natural or man-made disaster for that matter) is breathing down there collective necks, and then they want the supposedly infinite military resources to bail them out. A military whom itself is already stretched to the limit in Iraq, Afghanistan, and deployed in so many areas around the world. Hey, but who cares about the real facts – the State Blue Ribbon Reports of 2003 and 2007 (both of them) and now the County Grand Jury's report, I'm sure that these are all just to increase the greedy union's clout in our Republican run county....yea right, keep on dreaming. Check out the NCT Perspective section of April 6, 2008 for more recent views on this issue. (http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2008/04/06/perspective/7ce520f080c2f86b8825741b000293c4.txt)

Educated Stakeholders wrote on May 30, 2008 11:49 AM:Fire educated Stakeholders (Homeowners) can make a difference.

Never enough money. Never enough air coverage, fire trucks, firefighters (Cal Fire FF nor volunteer FF).

We must try a new approach. Go Early or Stay & Defend. It works and it is policy in Australia, New Zealand, and Ventura County Calif. 500,000 Ventura County residents and 6 Ventura County cities are involved in Go Early or Stay and Defend.

Lives, livestock, pets, old homes and new homes can be saved.

The Ventura County Government website has excellent info. VC educates the stakeholders.

Stakeholders (homeowners) have a choice: Go Very Very Early or Prepare months ahead of time and Stay & Defend.

Defensible space, brush clearance, clean gutters, educating the stakeholders, etc. is part of Go Early or Stay and Defend.

No matter what your choice, be involved and make your home defensible. It will help you, your community, and the FF.

The firefighters will not try to save homes that lack defensible space.

Reminders that our Southern Calif San Diego fire season is year round and volunteer FF are used successfully in many areas of the USA.

Personally, believe that all Cal Fire and Volunteer firefighters are outstanding. They deserve their incomes, retirement pay, etc.

However, the Cal Fire organization is bloated, too political, not good.

Fire wife wrote on May 30, 2008 1:53 PM:Volunteer fire staff lack the education and experience. They have the equipment but don't know the stratigy of fires. State, County, City and federal can have all the equipment, but they did have the personnel to operate it. Last year people complained about experience firefighters coming on scene and not protecting their homes. What people don't realize is some of these people have been going for 24+ hours without rest and if it is not safe to protect that house they will not. I am thankful to anyone that RESPONDED to any of my family (even if the homes were not saved)

To Fire wife wrote on May 30, 2008 3:13 PM:A group of Volunteer's saved many homes on Palomar Mountain this last fire up there. Held the fire long hours because the pros couldn't respond. Shame no one including NCT picked up the story and gave them the praise they should have gotten.

To Fire Wife wrote on May 30, 2008 3:34 PM:Volunteer firefighters do not lack education nor experience. Don't just assume things. Always inform yourself before making any type of comment. There are many volunteer FF's that go to college and get their Associate's degree in fire science, not to mention taking all the same courses as "professional" firefighters through the California State Fire Marshall's office of state fire training.

I know many volunteer firefighters that have been working for years, some as many as 50 years.

Bernie wrote on May 30, 2008 3:39 PM:Most people do not know much about fires, firehouses, firetrucks, firefighters (FF) (volunteers or Cal Fire).

Firefighters live, eat, sleep at the firehouse for several days.
FF are always busy: cleaning the trucks, fitness (bike rides or indoor exercises), more training, cleaning the firehouse, etc.
FF cook their own meals.
FF are on call for many hours and respond quickly.

Firetrucks cost $500,000. Specialized trucks more.
FF carry about 80 pounds of equipment including protective gear as they fight the fire.
FF stay at a fire an extra long time to make certain there are no remaining hot spots.
Jail inmates (women) help the FF clean up debris at the end of a fire.
All the firefighting equipment is very expensive.

FF will not protect a house that does not have defensible space.

Humans start fires; use equipment that sparks (starts the fire) during hot weather with or without wind.

More FF time is spent on Medical calls than fires. Medical calls have to be ready for anything (in spite of the info received from a 911 phone dispatcher).

It's very important to have 2 certified people in the ambulance.

Most all the medical equipment is very expensive. The Ambulance is a moving Emergency Room (ER). An actual ER in a hospital does not make money because of the expensive materials.

Both the cost of fighting fires and keeping us safe and healthy is very expensive.

Some people will not support their Fire District. This is because these people are dysfunctional and believe the Firefighters are overpaid. None have ever been firefighters and none have ever protected their own home during a fire. None have ever worked in an ambulance or in the ER in a hospital.

A career firefighter for years wrote on May 30, 2008 4:02 PM:Why then don't we trust our safety and well being to "volunteer" doctors, dentists, lawyers, nurses, CPA's, or let’s say commercial pilots for example? Why then? Because every field takes specialized training, education, and lot's of experience. Firefighting and rescue services are no different from the rest. I'd like to see the outcomes or the outcry, and the people's or government reactions, if we only had volunteer crews of commercial airline pilots. And golly, there’s no problem finding a whole lot of candidates. There are lot's of wannabe’s out there, i.e. general aviation pilots, that think they’re good enough to do the job and would love to give it a try. In reality, both the work of professional pilots and the work of professional firefighters take specialized skills and they both have to make split second decisions under extreme emergency conditions. It’s only their constant hours of training, re-training, and experience, that keeps them and other people safe ….. Or think about this, how about a "volunteer" dentist filling that bad tooth of yours? …. I could go on and on, but I won’t because the analogies are endless.

Fidens wrote on May 30, 2008 5:56 PM:Volunteer FD's across the US are in decline due to falling membership. It's not the status symbol people want anymore. Don't forget the San Pasqual VFD firefighter who started multiple fires in the late 90's and was put back in prison, because he couldn't stay away from fire.
Read ... they post many articles of VFD's who have known arsonists and kill people daily from fire truck accidents.
I personally would rather have paid guys who are held accountable, not wanna-be's who can come and go with the wind...

FF wrote on May 30, 2008 6:53 PM:Yes, I am a union (dirty word in this county) firefighter and proud of it and the job I do! The volunteers are good, but are not the answer. It is time the volunteer chief's (who are usually paid) let go of their kingdoms and egos and let the county improve fire service. And it's way past time for the irresponsible "anti-tax" people to stop mooching their fire protection from their "tax-paying" responsible neighbors.

TO career firefighter -- PM wrote on May 30, 2008 7:08 PM:This is reality.

The firefighter volunteers 2003 and 2007 did a great job. They have been trained.

There will never be enough career Cal Fire firefighters in SD County.

Trained volunteer firefighters are alive and well in many states in the U.S.A.

America was initially built with volunteer firefighters.

We must try a new approach. Go Early or Stay & Defend. It works and it is policy in Australia, New Zealand, and Ventura County Calif. 500,000 Ventura County residents and 6 Ventura County cities are involved in Go Early or Stay and Defend.

Those that Stay and Defend will be prepared and trained months ahead of time.

2007 fire: Neighbors in Poway saved 2 houses in the north Valle Verde Road area. (They did not have any training.)

Many people in San Diego County want to stay and defend. Some built their own homes.

According to you, we cannot build our own homes. We are not professionals. However, "homemade" homes are usually built much better than a developer home.

Ordinary people fly their own planes.

Your analogies are endless and useless.

Doctors, dentists, lawyers, reg. nurses, have years of learning, strict training, rules, tests, etc. before they become qualified. Mentally rigorous training. No shortcut to become a professional.

Read the blogs above (5-30-08 blog 3:13pm & 3:34pm) both are true.

Ordinary people with training and the mental desire and physical ability to stay and defend can make a positive difference.

Read at Ventura County Govt. Fire website, 12 pages. From the Fire Chief. p.1(cover) Meet Your First Weapon Against Wildfire. p.2 Saving lives and property through advanced planning. p.3 Defensible Space Works. p.6 & 7 Tour a wildfire-ready home.

Ventura County Fire is not Cal Fire.

Hot topic wrote on May 30, 2008 7:31 PM:5-30-08 7:02 AM. "... not build in the fire prone backcountry."

A fantastic wonderful idea that the supervisors will not use as a tool because every development means taxpayer money goes to the supervisors for their favorite projects.

The idea is excellent because we need Agriculture (Ag) to continue in places like Valley Center. We could get edibles at a reasonable cost from nearby growers, instead of the high priced edibles trucking or railing their way from northern Calif, middle Calif, Chile, etc.

Gas is very expensive and is part of the reason food prices are going up.

Ag is a big money maker in San Diego County. The supervisors are on the way making it impossible to grow because they have plans for developments (concrete) in the outback; ie the fire prone backcountry; our unincorporated areas.

New developments. Thought we have a water problem.

Soon nothing will be manufactured or grown in the USA. Leave it to the politicians to make us a 3rd world country.

The politicians pretend they improve the quality of our life.

to FF -- PM wrote on May 30, 2008 7:55 PM:Neither the State nor County nor Cal Fire can fix our fire problems. Their politics get in the way.

A County fire department would be a disaster.

It is not the volunteer Chief and volunteer FF causing problems.

It is money that we do not have and will never have.

It is Cal Fire politics, State politics, and County politics.

Do it right: get the communities and stakeholders involved.
Create additional Fire Safe Councils as necessary.

Fire is everyone's responsibility.

As of now, San Diego County does not have fire leadership.

Ventura County Fire Dept is the leader.

Career Firefighter wrote on May 30, 2008 8:38 PM:To -PM: First, you've missed the point. As you said in your own words "Doctors, dentists, lawyers, reg. nurses, have years of learning, strict training, rules, tests, etc. before they become qualified. Mentally rigorous training. No shortcut to become a professional."
and that's specifically the difference between volunteer anything and the professionals. Professional firefighters do have this mentally and physically rigorous training. Many volunteers do not, nor does the general public. Yes, some specific sound bites indicate a few houses were saved by people who decided to stay, but in general, most members of the public may not choose very wisely when deciding to safely stay and fight or cut and run. They will become a liability, and they will likely be killed. This is not some type of easily won video game that many people think it is. It is very much similar to war, but against nature as the enemy.
Second, just because people can fly their own planes doesn't make them qualitfied to pilot others for hire. And third, I'm not CalFire. I work for a major SoCal County FD that has urban, suburban, wildland interface, and back country responsibilities. We used to have many volunteers, and as we have progressed into the 21 century, we have found them to be effectively utilized in support only roles, but not as first responders. Liability vs. effectiveness just doesn't pan out with our highly populated Southern California landscapes.

MemoryTest wrote on May 30, 2008 9:03 PM:Re: Fidens' comment: anybody remember what John Orr, one of the most prolific arsonists in the state did for a living? Well, by golly, he was a paid professional firefighter from Glendale. Even worked as an arson investigator as a matter of fact. I guess one possibility is that being a "paid guy who's held accountable" is likely to make you an arsonist. Or maybe... just maybe... there's no correlation between one's employment status and whether one likes lighting fires. Arsonists are arsonists regardless of their other occupations.

Florians Warriors wrote on May 30, 2008 9:28 PM:To Memory Test: True you found the ONE paid guy in the state, can you name any other paid firefighters who have been setting fires? John Orr is doing life and will never see daylight. The loser from San Pasqual got out and where did they find his dumb butt, ON THE FIRE LINE! There are fire publications that publish vollie firefighters getting arrested daily for multiple arsons nationwide!! Don't want it here!
Volunteer firehouses nationwide are dying off, not proliferating like you seem to think. They cannot keep people manning the rigs during daylight hours. Besides ask SDFD how they like having San Pasqual running calls in the city. Ask Escondido FD why they won't let SPVFD in their city. The reason is professionalism (lack of),and the inability to act like firefighter, not kids on the line.

Vollies will be a detrement to the line and the wackos who want a rush will be out there getting in the way. You think off-duty PD is an issue, give a badge to a 18 year old vollie fireman, see what happens...

Heros for Hire wrote on May 31, 2008 6:06 AM:Not enough union city fire positions are available so let's nail the county. We will have $$.$$ an hour elite firefighters polishing $,$$$,$$$ chrome water tankers with fancy valves while waiting for that twenty year firestorm. They are too arrogant to believe that someone can protect their own property or volunteer to help their neighbor.

FF wrote on May 31, 2008 7:49 AM:As usual the conversation has drifted and is no longer of any value.

to Career Firefighter -- PM wrote on May 31, 2008 7:54 AM:Career Firefighter you do not want things to change. That would be ok if you had the money (zillions) to save us and save our homes.

We need a change; the stakeholders (homeowners) need to be involved.

Remove Cal Fire & all politics and the idea that the stakeholder (homeowners) are a liability and stupid and lazy.

There are not enough FF, firetrucks, etc.etc. and not enough money.

Leave early or stay and defend is policy in Australia: fires much like our fires. Leave early or stay and defend is policy in Ventura County Calif: fires much like our fires.

San Diego County government website known as Wildfire Zone Org has TIP CARDS on how to reduce homeowner fire risks.
Reduce your risk is mentioned again and again on the Tip Cards. Stakeholders must be involved, informed, trained.

From Wildfire Zone Org web:
"This website was developed by
the Farm and Home Advisor's Office
University of California
Cooperative Extension
County of San Diego and established with special funding from the Board of Supervisors of the County of San Diego."

The NCT most likely will not print the SD County website name ...

Ventura County Govt Fire website, 12 pages "Meet Your First Weapon Against Wildfire" helps stakeholders plan. It helps educate and advises all to make defensible space. Helps stakeholder to decide to go very early or prepare, stay and defend.

Education, training, etc. the stakeholders (homeowners) to make a choice based on their lifestyle, their health, their physical and mental strength to go very early or prepare, stay, defend.

Fire Safe Councils are important. They help save old and new homes.

FF would still have jobs. FF could help with the training process.

Leadership is needed to work with and for the stakeholders.

We need to be involved and prepared months ahead of a wildfire.

We want the help from FF and we want them to be safe.

Every homeowner must provide defensible space and reduce their risk as outlined by both San Diego County wildfire zone web and Ventura County's "Meet Your First Weapon Against Wildfire".

To you self proclaimed heros wrote on May 31, 2008 8:15 AM:your swollen heads cause your eyesight to only focus on how much taxpayer money you can blow on trucks with polished aluminum wheels!

to Career Firefighter wrote on May 31, 2008 9:29 AM:Career Firefighter and others,

Many years and the recent horrific fires of 2003 and 2007 indicate that we must stop what we are doing and do something different and better.

Not much changed from 2003 to 2007, except for a lot of reports (paperwork) and not enough positive actions.

Changes are necessary in the form of
action plans that include the stakeholders (homeowners) who are also
taxpayers.

Women now have the right to vote. Blacks now have the right to ride
in the front of the bus.

Leadership and progress outside the current SD County fire box is necessary.

Liability and other problems will always exist but it should not stop us from moving ahead.

Career Fire wrote on May 31, 2008 9:58 AM:Career Firefighter quote:

"Yes, some specific sound bites indicate a few houses were saved by people who decided to stay, but in general, most members of the public may not choose very wisely when deciding to safely stay and fight or cut and run. They will become a liability, and they will likely be killed. This is not some type of easily won video game that many people think it is. It is very much similar to war, but against nature as the enemy."

You are assuming most members of the public are stupid.

Inspite of your insinuations and demoting the public to an irritation, I still believe that the FF and volunteer FF do a great job.

Liability: someone like you who does not want any changes and improvements, does not want the public to be firewise and able to make a choice of go very early or prepare, stay, and defend.

Government 'loves' dumb people. It allows government to do things that are not professional, not necessary, not ethical, not improving the quality of life.

Government did not find a cure for any disease.

Most of the public learned from childhood that fire is dangerous.

You and others like you can make a positive difference: think cooperation between FF and the stakeholders (homeowners). We are 'fighting' the same 'fire war' that FF fight.

Career Firefighter wrote on May 31, 2008 10:54 AM:Assuming that the public is stupid, no not at all. Think the public as only a liability, no, nothing could be further from the truth. The public is my ultimate boss and the reason that the fire services exist in the first place. What the public is however, is naive. Yes, defensible space and fire resistant construction, and not building in fire prone, brush covered areas without adequate clearance and water supplies is probably one of the most important changes the public can make in light of our severe fire problem in California. CERT teams in the neighborhoods, adding additional lookouts and assisting with evacuations are very helpful. But the general public, with training but without any first hand fire behavior experience of WHEN to stay or WHEN to go will result in numerous burn injuries and possibly their death. Again I'll say this is not a game for someone that doesn't know what’s about to happen, knowing when the fire is about to “blow-up” on them. Even experienced firefighters get "burned over" sometimes and die. Why do you think that we all are required to carry aluminized fire shelters at all times when on a wildland fire incident? And even these “shake and bakes” as we call them, doesn’t provide adequate protection from injury during Santa Ana wind driven fire conditions. When the writers on this blog that think they will know how to tell when to STAY and when to GO and can explain to me, the 10 standard firefighting orders, the 13 situations that say "watch out", what LACES means, or tell me how you know if an area is in "alignment" or not, then I'd be happy to discuss firefighting strategy and tactics with you.

Fidens Mortis wrote on May 31, 2008 11:41 AM:To all the fire haters out there, you can put them down when you feel inadequate, just like this mislead County, or you can get out of Mommie's house and get educated.
Cut the brush, clear your property, and make defensible space so you can make a stand if needed or give youself time to shelter down, then make a break from it.
Crying about shiny trucks and pointing fingers at pay, doesn't keep you, yes YOU the PROPERTY OWNER responsible for your property...

Hank wrote on May 31, 2008 1:30 PM:To Career Firefighter: You call the public "naive," i.e., "deficient in worldly wisdom or informed judgment" (Merriam-Webster). Without qualification. You denigrate the very valid argument that joint participation of informed and competent homeowners and firefighing professionals is the ONLY way to prevent a repeat of the disgraceful property losses we have suffered from two large WUI fires in the recent past. This argument comes not from naive American homeowners (many, if not most of whom want nothing of Stay and Defend or Go Early). It comes from EXPERIENCED, ENLIGHTENED, AND EDUCATED firefighting professionals, community leaders, and WUI fire researchers at many levels. Check it out.

Incidentally, homeowner competency means studying the issue (including talking to your local fire professionals) and honestly self-assessing whether or not you have the "right stuff" physically and psychologically.

The professional firefighters in the WUI will NEVER be able to stem the property destruction from WUI embers. Only the PROVEN Stay and Defend or Go Early paradigm can. Proven in this country and down under. Your "shake and bake" shelters are last ditch Hobson's choices for FIREFIGHTERS facing radiant heat, not embers after the flame front has passed. The aluminized pup tent in the heart of a firestorm cannot be compared to a fire resistant building with adequate defensible space. The latter is a fine shelter against the radiant energy impacting from afar, unlike the former which is analogous to loosely wrapping a hot dog in aluminum foil and putting it next to a fire.

Competent homeowners are no more professional firefighters than educated civilians are paramedics or physicians. BUT, as timely use of AEDs by educated civilians saves more lives in cardiac arrest than paramedics can, so does the competent homeowner during the Defend part of the paradigm save more property than professional firefighters can.

I have studied this topic. I am not aware of ACTUAL, DOCUMENTED Stay and Defend or Go Early deaths and injuries to competent homeowners. I am not aware of ACTUAL, DOCUMENTED deaths and injuries to firefighters attributable their having rescue competent homeowners Staying and Defending properly prepared properties. I am not saying there have been no deaths or casualties worldwide in Stay and Defend situations, but to my knowledge the documented cases have occurred when individuals did not adhere to the rules, and did dangerous and proscribed things, like sheltering underground. Please enlighten us with whatever DOCUMENTED FACTS you have on this issue.

If you will actually study the Stay and Defend or Go Early paradigm, you will note that a central point is that whatever your plan, DO NOT CHANGE IT DURING THE FIRE. If you have elected BEFORE the fire starts to Go Early, then Go Early. DO NOT STAY. If you have elected to Stay and Defend BEFORE the fire starts, DO NOT ATTEMPT TO FLEE. Virtually all the CIVILIAN deaths in WUI fires have occurred to people who FLED TOO LATE, rather than EVACUATED EARLY.

Temecula wrote on May 31, 2008 7:02 PM:As screwed up as Riverside County Fire /CDF (Cal-Fire) is we have not had the fire storms in Riverside County that have happened twice in 4 years in San Diego. Like it or not a unified plan is always better than multiple plans. The fact remains San Diego County has too many different fire depts. Riverside has 8 different depts. including RCoFD/CDF. San Diego has over 60. San Diego has the less area being covered by more depts.

By taking creating 1 or more larger depts. saving can and will be seen. Put out a contract to be bid on by Cal-Fire, San Diego City, Rural Metro, Etc. But the contract has to be fair. Not some pie in the sky staffed dept.

The people that want to hold engines in San Diego do not understand Auto-Aid.

The military is not the answer. I personally saw 2 USMC Dozers that ran out of fuel on Palomar Mountain.

The Military would need to be trained and then kept local to be available. That would then prevent them from doing what they do best, defending the USA.

The best idea written so far is for homeowners to take care of their own property. Houses don't burn when they are cleaned up and have defensive able space.

State Parks don’t burn when they are cleaned up. Park Rangers that want to burn the park during a fire storm need to be replaced. I was up on Palomar last October. I listened to the State Parks people tell CDF and the Forest Service no Dozers in the Park. This was while the mountain burned. They would not even let the hand crews cut new line, only open up the existing lines. Even the Forest Service let dozers and hand crews in the Wilderness.

The fact remains, when the Mother Nature wants to get ugly, she will. There is nothing we can do except be prepared.

Career Firefighter wrote on May 31, 2008 7:27 PM:Hank, thank you for your well thought out essay. It is very informative and will be of good use during the next round of WUI fires. I certainly hope that the public listens to you. Of those folks, made of the "right stuff" as you say, that chose to stay on their own, and defend their property (which, by the way, can be replaced by homeowner's insurance), do they realize that they won't be able to escape down the road, even if they wanted to, at that point. And tell me, what do you know about the effects of superheated air and the products of combustion on the lungs of the human body? What do you know about pulmonary edema?

JF wrote on May 31, 2008 8:24 PM:Escondeeter, so you mean to tell me that the volunteers in rural areas of SD County have a combined budget of $171 million? Isn't that the difference between the $8.1 million quoted and the $180 million you claim?

Also note that LA County has about 75 volunteer firefighters. And 2690 paid firefighters... just for the county portion. That doesn't count the 3000 LA City firefighters. Or the paid firefighters from Pasadena, Long Beach, Glendale, Burbank... well, you get the point.

There are a total of 16 fire helicopters in the county of Los Angeles. How many are in the county of San Diego? Three.

And Hank, the two unfortunate folks who died in the Witch Fire stayed in their house. Bad choice. Incidentally, they were in an area covered in part by a volunteer department. Alas, that department had parked both of their apparatus in a ditch.

SD resident wrote on May 31, 2008 8:32 PM:To: San Diego County,

Remember there are many cases of firefighters laying down their lives to protect our property. Every year we ask them to go out and protect peoples houses they have never met. To leave their lives, families and friends and work untold hours in terrible conditions. They do this without complaint, go out year after year and place their lives on the line to protect your property no matter who you are and what you think of them. So why don't can't we support them and give them the tools to do the job they do so selflessly. I for one always thank them whenever I can for the great job they do.

Ignorant Fools wrote on May 31, 2008 9:45 PM:Property owners of San Diego County are too ignorant about WUI fires. They do not and will never have the skill or knowledge of professional firefighters to protect their property from fire. They just get in the way if they don't evacuate and it hinders fire suppression efforts.

Political Party Line wrote on Jun 1, 2008 2:02 AM:QUOTE: Ignorant Fools[-] wrote on May 31, 2008 9:45 PM:"Property owners of San Diego County are too ignorant about WUI fires. They do not and will never have the skill or knowledge of professional firefighters to protect their property from fire. They just get in the way if they don't evacuate and it hinders fire suppression efforts." END QUOTE

How different are the SD County property owners (stakeholders) from property owners (stakeholders) in Australia, Ventura County Calif, and Los Alamos County, New Mexico. The wildfire policy is Go Early or Stay and Defend for Australia, Ventura, Los Alamos.

Where are your scientific documented facts indicating that SD County stakeholders are brain dead. You sound like a flat-earth person; uneducated, dysfunctional, and cannot face facts ie the earth is round.

Your comment is an old 'Cal Fire upper management political party line' that has not improved our Wildland Urban Interface (WUI) wildfire situation. Put your millions of dollars where your mouth is or get out of the way of progress.

It took brain power to build SD County and have universities, hospitals, labs inventing new meds, fire safe councils, TV, electricity, museums, sporting events, libraries, commerce, airports, agriculture, firehouses, schools, highways, zoo, wild animal park, symphony, etc.

We are real and smart and able to learn much more than what you know.

Ignoring the people wrote on Jun 1, 2008 8:45 AM:QUOTE: Ignorant Fools[-] wrote on May 31, 2008 9:45 PM:"Property owners of San Diego County are too ignorant about WUI fires. They do not and will never have the skill or knowledge of professional firefighters to protect their property from fire. They just get in the way if they don't evacuate and it hinders fire suppression efforts." END QUOTE

How different are the SD County property owners (stakeholders) from property owners (stakeholders) in Australia, Ventura County Calif, and Los Alamos County, New Mexico. The wildfire policy is Go Early or Stay and Defend for Australia, Ventura, Los Alamos.

Where are your scientific documented facts indicating that SD County stakeholders are brain dead. You sound like a flat-earth person; uneducated, dysfunctional, and cannot face facts ie the earth is round.

Your comment is an old 'Cal Fire upper management political party line' that has not improved our Wildland Urban Interface (WUI) wildfire situation. Put your millions of dollars where your mouth is or get out of the way of progress.

It took brain power to build SD County and have universities, hospitals, labs inventing new meds, fire safe councils, TV, electricity, museums, sporting events, libraries, commerce, airports, agriculture, firehouses, schools, highways, zoo, wild animal park, symphony, etc.

We are real and smart and able to learn much more than what you know. We are educated and or self-learned and rely on common sense not political comments. We expected action after the 2003 fires; it did not come through in 2007. It is time for a change. San Diego County needs fire leadership. Follow the leaders in Australia, Ventura County CA, Los Alamos County N.M.

There will never be enough money for enough fire equipment and firefighters (Cal Fire and volunteers) to help all of us.

We need to focus on the stakeholders: fire training, fire tools, fire plans, etc. We need to be prepared. We will be an asset, not a liability.

Top Fire government officials (politicians) would prefer a stupid population; easier to control.

How much did the 2007 fires cost. $16 million for one or all fires? Or more likely, near 1 billion dollars. Harris, Witch, Rice, Poomacha had 5486 assigned firefighters. Yet many stakeholders (homeowners) never saw a firetruck nor a firefighter. 315,240 plus acres burned.

Both the firefighters and the stakeholders (homeowners) need and deserve better.

Hank wrote on Jun 1, 2008 9:11 AM:To JF: I respectfully submit that you don't have a clue why Mr. Bain and Ms. Fox died in the Witch Fire. Their charred bodies were found in their destroyed house on Highland Valley Rd in Poway, but a friend said that Bain intended to "make an attempt to get as much stuff out of here as possible." (SignonSanDiego, Oct 26, 2007). Sounds like they were NOT trying to Stay and Defend. Again, this is NOT a documented case of the death or injury of an individual willingly and competently Staying and Defending his/her house against an ember shower. Bain and Fox certainly did not Go Early. Invalid rebuttal.


To Career Firefighter: It sounds like you still don't get it. The SOGE (Stay Or Go Early) paradigm clearly states EITHER LEAVE EARLY OR STAY AND DEFEND. Once committed to a carefully considered plan, whatever it is, STICK TO IT. People, including professionals, get hurt when they abandon their training and planning and panic. If you really are a firefighter and are really interested learning about the stuff you are criticizing, you might benefit from conversations with senior firefighting personnel who KNOW what SOGE really means and have first-hand experience with it. For a start, look up Chief Bob Roper, who is the Fire Chief of Ventura County, or Chief Douglas MacDonald, who is the Fire Chief of Los Alamos County, NM.


BTW, I don't know what your medical background is, but as a physician, I know the effects of smoke, heat, CO, cyanide, etc, etc on the human cardiopulmonary system. NONE are significant factors in wildland fires. Even though elevated carboxyhemoglobin levels are commonly found in fire victims, living and dead, if they are dead, it does not necessarily mean that CO killed them. I could go into the physiology, but won't. It is quite rare to see a death in wildland fires truly attributable to smoke or products of combustion. Smoke kills in CLOSED STRUCTURE fires, not OUTDOORS in WUI fires. I know what pulmonary edema is, and can say you are blowing smoke if you try to scare civilians away from SOGE because of a threat of pulmonary edema. If pulmonary edema was a problem in WUI fires, WUI firefighters would be dropping like flies while gasping for breath. NOT SO. When wildland firefighters die from acute cardiopulmonary failure, it is almost always due to myocardial infarction. Check it out.

JF wrote on Jun 1, 2008 7:50 PM:Hank, I have just one issue with Stay and Defend or Go Early. What is the first priority of fire professionals? Yep, life. It's more important than property. The problem is when that line is confused.

As you stated, the unfortunate folks on Highland Valley died trying to save property. Doesn't matter if it's the house itself, or what's in it. So... the default answer is Go Early, not defend. As others have stated, non-firefighters don't have the experience to know when to go.

I'd suggest you join retired Chief Bowman's group. He's got some great ideas.

Oh, and I might ask... what's one of the first symptoms of CO poisoning? Confusion. So would making poor decisions leading to one's demise be secondary to CO poisoning?

FF wrote on Jun 2, 2008 9:44 AM:I had to make one more comment. Many keep citing Chief Roper and Ventura as the answer. Has anyone noticed his title; Ventura COUNTY Fire Chief.

to FF wrote on Jun 2, 2008 3:13 PM:to FF "Ventura COUNTY Fire Chief."

Absolutely excellent outstanding to have SOGE (Stay Or Go Early) aka Go very Early or prepare, Stay and Defend AND a forward thinking Fire Chief like Chief Bob Roper, Ventura County CA. or Chief Douglas MacDonald, Los Alamos County NM.

That would raise SD County into the league of Fire Leadership.

In the meantime, we just have a lot of political posturing, egos involved. And repeated info, misinformation, same political suggestions, and same political actions. And the need for an enormous amount of money which is not available.

How to tax us: some of us are already pay fire taxed via real estate.
Until we raise the bar, have SOGE, Fire Leadership (politically free), stakeholders (homeowners) involved, it would be like the Boston Tea Party tax. Taxes without representation. Taxes without stakeholder benefit.

2003 to 2007: not enough has been done
in these 7 months since 2007 fires.
Nothing new that really makes a major fire difference.

Planning better for the protection of the front line firefighters is also needed.

Hank wrote on Jun 2, 2008 6:08 PM:To JF: I agree totally with what I think your point is. We need a COUNTY level fire service for the WUI, not the patchwork of districts we now have. A County FD with SOGE - that's the name of
the game.

I totally agree that preservation of human life is the primary goal of any firefighter. We seem to disagree that it is possible for certain individual homeowners to save their homes (SOGE) without interfering with firefighters or causing firefighters to have to rescue them from danger.

CO poisoning causes decreased oxygen delivery to all organs, including the brain. Confusion indeed is an early sign of decreased brain function (whether due to a knock on the head or
hypoxia). However, blaming a decedent's SUPPOSED actions, which SUPPOSEDLY caused them to do wrong things, which supposedly put them in harm's way, which caused their demise, is a bit of a
stretch. I assume you may be referring to the unfortunate demise of firefighter Steve Rucker, which was widely reported as due to CO intoxication causing him to essentially walk into, instead away from, the fire. Perhaps. But just because a decdecent has a high carboxyhemoglobin level (as Mr. Rucker did) does not mean that CO is clinically significant in a given case.

In any event, CO does not translate into a hazard for the competent homeowner who is Staying and Defending a properly prepared house. As you know, the original shelter-in-place (SIP) concept
was to protect an individual INSIDE a suitably sealed dwelling against airborne toxins in the air OUTSIDE (like biological aerosols, nerve gas, etc). For a house with defensible space, that
individual will be over 100 ft from the combustion process and protected by the barrier provided by the closed structure. As you know, CO is a product of INCOMPLETE combustion. Thus, CO levels are greatest NEAR a wildfire while it is burning, and WHILE the flames are being doused (incomplete combustion).

ONLY A FIREFIGHTER should be near a wildfire and attempt to douse a wildfire. THE HOMEOWNER MUST SHELTER INSIDE until the flame front has passed, and the CO level outside the house has dropped. The CO level generally drops within a few minutes. The homeowner must never be outside when the wildfire is actively burning next to his/her house, not just because of CO, of course.

It sounds like we agree more than not.

JF wrote on Jun 3, 2008 6:44 AM:Hank, indeed we do. That's why I suggested that you contact retired Chief Bowman's group and work with them.

Hank wrote on Jun 3, 2008 1:34 PM:JF, I might just do that. Adios, my friend.

To JF wrote on Jun 3, 2008 3:23 PM:The area where those two people died during the Witch Fire lived in Ramona's(CALFIRE) area.

Dave wrote on Jun 5, 2008 7:03 PM:The number one recommendation of the grand jury that needs to be acted on is the need to consolidate fire dispatch. The grand jury however cited a misleading stat comparing what LA and Orange Counties spend compared to what San Diego County spends on fire protection. The LA and Orange County figures includes what CAL-Fire spends as well as the cost to provide fire protection in nearly 80 cities as well as in the unincorporated area, while the San Diego figures excludes what CAL-Fire and local fire agencies spend to provide fire protection in unincorporated San Diego County.