George wrote on Jun 10, 2008 1:01 AM:There is no need to mandate high-density development to justify a fire safety road. Just build the road using our gas tax money, Transnet tax money, and Prop 1B tax money.

valley center fire guy wrote on Jun 10, 2008 6:49 AM:finally. someone tells the emperor he has no clothes.

the roads in valley center are a mega disaster waiting to happen. and when it does..the same folks who say they don't want the roads will be the first to point the finger at people who should have b uilt it ...but who did not.

queen of the valley wrote on Jun 10, 2008 7:15 AM:I was one of the people evacuated to the school during the fire.

I saw Horn there. He was pissed off that the roads were blocked and he said he was going to do something about it.

We need that road. And we need people in valley center who know how to read grand jury reports.

To George wrote on Jun 10, 2008 7:28 AM:Hey George, last time I checked, California is in the midst of a budget crisis and our economy as a whole is heading into a recession. This is a solid proposal to get critically needed public infrastructure paid for by private sources. I am glad some of our elected officials understand how to get things done without wasting MY tax dollars.

Firewise wrote on Jun 10, 2008 7:35 AM:Try three fires in Valley Center in the last three weeks. I dont know why everyone has such amnesia, but nine or so months ago all of us were evacuating VC and bitching that the roads were clogged. There are only 3 ways out of our town...we need more evacuation routes. Great article.

BILL HORN QUESTIONER wrote on Jun 10, 2008 8:19 AM:Did anyone see the story on channel 8 last nite about the new road proposed in valley center?

they talked about how it was a surprise and no one knew about it.

maybe they should have used the archives of the nc times to see that not only did the vc (that's valley center not viet cong) planners support the road in 2005 and 2006, they went and testified to the planning commission and the board of supervisors.

in fact. they complained there were not enough roads!

some conspiracy.

Finally wrote on Jun 10, 2008 9:17 AM:I'm tired of the complaints as well. With state budget cuts, a downturn in the economy, and the government wanting to shift money from roads to transit, it's impossible to build new roads. We need this road and its time we got behind it... the next fire is just around the corner.

conspiracy theory wrote on Jun 10, 2008 9:50 AM:i've been reading about this conspiracy for a few weeks and last night i saw it on channel 8.

where can i sign up?

marie wrote on Jun 10, 2008 10:33 AM:GOOD ARTICLE.

WHO ELECTS THESE CLOWNS ANYWAY?

Fact Checker wrote on Jun 10, 2008 11:13 AM:When the same misinformation is repeated over and over again ... astute readers should suspect an organized effort to discredit. 'Tis the way of good PR. Cramming 3000 new homes (that's 9000 new people fleeing a fire in 18,000 escaping cars) onto 1600 acres on the west end of Valley Center is more fire hazard than fire escape.

This road, which was never approved by the VC Planning Group, stops 4 miles short of the escape route it claims to be. At the costs estimated for this 2 mile segment, it would take 6000 more homes (18,000 more people fleeing a fire in 36,000 more cars) to finance an escape route that actually starts at the high school.

Does 30,000 more people between Valley Center and Old 395 sound like a fire escape plan to you? Or does it sound like overdevelopment --in the name of fire protection?

How DO these folks sleep at night?

Ron wrote on Jun 10, 2008 11:15 AM:i moved to Valley Center in 1964. I've lived there on and off ever since.

If I had my way anyone who moved here after that would have to leave until we get better roads to support their SUV's and desert toy trailers.

That would include most members of the Valley Center Planning group.

Absent that we should probably figure out a way to build a new road to get us out of this hell hole when the next big fire comes.

That is what you call planning.

And I was quite happy to see this article expose these charlatans for what they are: publicity hungry mini-meglomaniacs.

I know a secret wrote on Jun 10, 2008 11:31 AM:pssst.

listen up: Some folks are trying to build a new road to stop people from getting killed during the next fire.

Bill Horn is in on it.

Pass it along.

Bob wrote on Jun 10, 2008 11:48 AM:Mary, and other property developers like yourselves, are full of it. Build a new road - fine. But, cram 3000 homes without any local review? Preposterous. This proposed road doesn't even provide the exit you bozzos think it does. You're just desparate to mow down what's left of Valley Center. So, you use fire escape as your excuse.

To Fact Checker wrote on Jun 10, 2008 11:54 AM:The County of SD's website says that the valley center planning group supported to extend a much needed emergency fire road from cool valley to I-15 via hwy 395. Whats the misinformation you speak of?

mary wrote on Jun 10, 2008 12:00 PM:you are right bob.

during the next fire can i use your u.n. issued black helicopter to escape valley center?

i'll bring the non-flouridated water and enough dry food to survive in the wild for three weeks.

that should give us enough time to escape THE CONSPIRACY.

please keep this to yourself.

they are listening.

p.s. did you notice the image verification code contains secret messages?

pps. it says: 'bob: get a life.' wonder what that means. you are not in the cia are you?

the scientist wrote on Jun 10, 2008 12:52 PM:excuse me: but I am a scientist conducting research into the long term effects of exposure to smoke from large forest fires.

we are getting reports that exposure of this kind leads to amnesia or dementia and even paranoia.


is this condition just limited to people on the valley center planning group?

or have other folks experienced it too.

we also have sporadic reports of this condition affecting people in the media.

perhaps the electro magnetic fields are reacting with the smoke to produce alzheimer like agents?

or then again: maybe these folks are just plain old off their rockers.

Fact Checker wrote on Jun 10, 2008 1:00 PM:Re: misinformation.
The VCCPG recommended a new (approx)4 mile road from Cole Grade/Cool Valley to West Lilac which already connects to the NORTHWEST to 395.

The Hornville road is a 2 mile segment from West Lilac SOUTHWEST to 395 ... The critical 4 mile segment from West Lilac to Cole Grade/Cool Valley is missing.

No link. No fire escape route.

Clever ruse. These folks are willing to deceive, confuse, AND discredit a bunch of community volunteers for an opportunity to make a fortune. This is all about money. How much money? If the revenue is $50K profit per lot @3000 lots make this a $150 Million project.

Follow the money. Some people will do anything for it.

Tim wrote on Jun 10, 2008 1:04 PM:I challenge ANY of you to post evidence of ANY public review of the 3,000 home development that Supervisor Horn proposed. There was NO public review. Horn just made a motion and DPLU staff started planning for all these new homes. This new development will not build an evacuation route. It will only build a road from W. Lilac to 395. Horn and his co-developers should concentrate on Cole Grade to W. Lilac FIRST!

VC Jags wrote on Jun 10, 2008 1:50 PM:Bob is absolutely correct that it's preposterous to cram 3,000 homes into an area without local review....the thing is, the CPG reviewed this and approved it. problem is, the county dplu took 2 years to bring it forward (while three department heads "resigned") and by the time they did, the PG forgot what they approved. Bob, this is a classical case of amnesia Im afraid. Good point though.

VC Chamber Member wrote on Jun 10, 2008 2:15 PM:Call Cheryl Jones at DPLU & ask her for a copy of the April 24, 2006 minutes of the VCCPG....It says that it was the CPG that wanted road 3A. Critical Link = Lives saved from the next fire (oops, there have been several in the last three weeks). We must unite to remind the PG what they voted for and to represent the community of VC - not their own personal attacks and agendas.

fact checkee wrote on Jun 10, 2008 2:18 PM:hey fact checker: follow the link below.

see the map.

see the pretty yellow line on the map?

that is more than a pretty yellow line.

that is how road builders represent roads when they need to use pictures for people for whom words are not their best medium of understanding.

so click on the link and voila:there's your missing road.
... />http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2006/08/15/news/inland/22_49_068_14_06.txt

The Only Conspiracy wrote on Jun 10, 2008 2:37 PM:The only conspiracy is the one by a small group of "road haters" that manage to spring up with anti-road propaganda every time someone wants to build a road. The are closely related to the "airport haters", the "concrete plant haters" and the "quarry haters". Same recycled arguments, but just enough of the rest of us buy into their psychosis that I don't believe any major new roads will be built anywhere for a long time. People of Valley Center better just prepare to stay put and weather the next fire at home. I'd rather get caught in a well prepared shelter at home than in a car waiting in a long line of traffic while the flames march toward me.

George for County Supervisor wrote on Jun 10, 2008 4:27 PM:George at 1:01 am hit the nail on the head. Yes - build that road. No - don't fill the area with a high density development as an excuse to pay for the road. And that point, the developer funding of the road, makes me wonder - who will pay to hire the teachers, the firemen, the sheriffs, and others who will have to service this Hornsville place? Further - where will the water come from?

Go with the flow wrote on Jun 10, 2008 4:29 PM:Our water supply is drying up. Who will join me in demanding that the developer prove that he has an adequate supply of H2O for a development of this size. The entire county has a right to know about this, because we are already being asked to cut back and rationing is on the horizon.

Cal wrote on Jun 10, 2008 4:46 PM:Is Mary Kuper yelling fire?

George wrote on Jun 10, 2008 10:14 PM:Yes, the state is in a budget crisis but guess what -- in the last election, the voters put some of the gas tax money in a lock box so it can only be spent on roads. That's why the public transit people are up in arms -- they can't siphon off as much money as they used to take. (In fact, SANDAG's transportation committee is planning a special meeting to uncover "reliable funding sources". That means: grab your wallet! Here they come again!) We're still paying those gas taxes for road construction, the money has to be spent on road construction, so let's spend it on road construction. While we're at it, let's widen the choke points on the freeways, eliminate discriminatory entrance requirements on the reversible lanes in the center of I-15 to reclaim wasted capacity, allow everyone to use the shoulders during peak commute hours instead of just 3 buses an hour, and add the extra lanes that should have been installed decades ago to eliminate our congestion problem.

George for Supervisor wrote on Jun 10, 2008 10:27 PM:George, here's my question, because you have been nominated for Supervisor. The Grand Jury reports that it may well take over 30 years to widen SR76 in the following article because of budget priorities and lack of funding: (http://news.yahoo.com/s/sddt/20080528/lo_sddt/grandjuryreportchidessandagoverslownessofhighwayin) so without public funding, without transnet and without tax revenue...how in the heck would this road 3A get built without private funding? The floor is yours Sir.

Al wrote on Jun 11, 2008 6:34 AM:I have been reading constantly about the three roads out of Valley Center. It appears that people have difficulty with basic math. As I see it, there are multiple ways out of the area -- Valley Center Road (two directions), Lake Wohlford Road, Lilac Road, Cole Valley Road. That makes five avenues out. The new road would be nice but at what expense? More dense housing? If there were nothing fishy with this deal, why didn't Horn participate in the Western Days parade. He was scheduled. Was he afraid to face the voters?

George wrote on Jun 11, 2008 10:01 AM:To build roads with our tax money, it is necessary to adjust budget priorities to meet regional needs. One example of improper budgeting would be SANDAG's plans to spend $1 billion to install trolley tracks right next to the Coaster tracks from Old Town to UCSD. Instead of building a duplicate service, all that's needed is the construction of new Coaster stations at Miramar Road and Nobel Drive. (See: "$1 Billion Problem Has $1 Billion Solution", NCT Jan 25, 2008).

You are touching on a much deeper issue: the mismanagement of our regional transportation system because our leaders have no profesional training in regional planning and do not operate with a regional perspective (See: Discussion 3 in "SANDAG: How Much Growth Is Sustainable?", San Diego County Grand Jury, 2007-2008). This lack of expertise is interfering with needed infrastructure improvements. (See: "Fix The Regional Transportation Plan", NCT Sept 13, 2007) The best description of the existing planning process is "chaotic", which makes it the primary reason for the gridlock we experience daily. (See: "Reject The Transportation Plan", NCT Nov 19, 2007). The solution to the problem is simple: remove the obstacles to infrastructre improvement (See: "Smart Idea: Disband SANDAG", NCT May 22, 2006).

Thank you for the floor. I haven't included hyperlinks to the other articles since the URL gets chopped-off by the blog software. If you copy the title of the article and paste it into your favorite search engine, all of them are still online for reference.

Deb in VC wrote on Jun 11, 2008 6:52 PM:Unfortunately this letter is completely inaccurate. the Circulation SC of the Valley Center Planning Group has been working with the County for 2 years putting new roads on the map to help with fire evacuation. The road that bill Horn is proposing is a duplicate of a road that already exists. Plus, you add 3000 homes/ 6,000 cars and do you think anyone else will be able to use that road to get out???????? In addition, the road does NOT. Let me repeat this, does NOT connect to Valley Center!!!!! It does not provide an alternative evacuation route.

jack wrote on Jun 13, 2008 11:04 AM:great story ....bout time someone told the truth about those clowns

road to no where wrote on Jun 16, 2008 9:42 AM:All the talk of escape roads and nothing said about how all those people jammed on the roads would never use that road anyway. It would not help anything. There is already a road up there now.
All of these comments supporting the roads are simply mouth pieces for the developer and special interests. If you really want a fire escape route finish the VC Road with 2 lanes!

year resident wrote on Jun 16, 2008 10:38 PM:I've been through the fires and I did notice the gridlock from the evacuees was nowhere near the proposed road. That road would not have helped the complainers one bit. If you put 3,000 more homes in that area, even with the road, the people who live down there are going to be put in even more danger due to gridlock. We all know it's about money for the developer and Horn.

fire survivor wrote on Jun 18, 2008 5:45 AM:This Valley Center fire discussion is idiocy and simply a developer's distraction to their real purpose of adding more homes to an unpopulated area. I had to flee Rancho Bernardo during the fires, for goodness sake, and found myself in gridlock traffic unable to move on Highway 56. This "fire evacuation road" in VC is desired to build houses and profits for a very few people, some of whom have written above.

old timer wrote on Jun 18, 2008 5:55 AM:Who are these people? Was Mary Kuper one of those developers who shouted with the same intensity but a different message twenty years ago? The first Valley Center Sewer proponents spent thousands of dollars and sent out flyers titled "Time Bomb" and "Underground Contamination" to scare Valley Centerites into transforming their community into a conventional suburb. It was a scam, as shown by the fact that no sewer was built and everyone has been healthy for twenty years. A "Fire Road" in the proposed area is an even greater scam and extremely threatening to the residents of Valley Center.

One-hope-knows wrote on Jun 22, 2008 9:37 PM:It's hopeless expecting the gov't of any ilk to do any new roads. They can't even improve the existing ones except for those getting special interests funds for HOV & transit which are a huge waste of public money and under-utilized by the average commuter. What is needed are new solutions not based on cars, buses, or trains. Don't expect gov't to fund this new stuff because this would solve the problem and eliminate their job.

Valley Center Artist wrote on Jun 23, 2008 7:53 AM:Mary Kuper is the owner of Kuper Development and her business, as listed at linkedin.com, is acquiring and developing multi-family and industrial projects.

She states that the three roads out of Valley Center were cut off in the most recent fire. This is patently untrue. I can verify that Cole Grade to Valley Center Road was open and never blocked.

That road is the road from Valley Center High School out of the town. Those who stayed at the High School did so not because they were trapped, they stayed because they either had no where else to go (remember..the majority of San Diego County was being evacuated) or because they did not wish to leave Valley Center.

Was the road busy? Yes. It took my wife and me 45 minutes to go from Fruitvale to the grade into Escondido. In the future, when Valley Center Road has been widened from two lanes to four, exiting Valley Center is going to take very little time at all.

Both Mary and Dan Auld, who contributed another opinion piece in yesterdays San Diego Union Tribue blasting Valley Centerites for opposing Bill Horn's project, have a vested financial interest in seeing Hornsville approved and built. As does Bill Horn.

D.Thomas wrote on Jun 23, 2008 7:55 AM:This is a total houseing development scam that will ruin VC. The artical in the SD Union Tribune is a farce and totally missleading. The planning department of VC is right in saying "no thanks" to this new road scam once they found out all the dirty little secrets of the developement deal.
VC and Rainbow water district have ask that everyone cut back on water usage and now you want to allow 3000 new homes to be built. what are you crazy! California is in desperate need of water as it is and you want to add 3000 more homes? do the math.
By the way VC already has 5 exit roads in case of fire.

VC resident wrote on Jun 23, 2008 11:31 AM:Plain and simple....road 3(A)is not a fire road....it is a development road.

3(A) will do nothing to help evacuate VC residents during a fire. 2 other roads already exist which do the same thing.

Bill Horn should be kicked out of office. He obviously is not representing the people, he is only representing the interests of developers.

John wrote on Jun 25, 2008 9:08 AM:One big incestuous family running the show. Mary Kuper is chairwoman of Republican voter registration in SD County and she is a developer. That pretty much says it all. This forum is just a lame attempt at pro development PR.

Used to be a nursery rhyme...now a future development wrote on Jun 25, 2008 6:53 PM:Mary Mary quite contrary
How does your valley grow?
With fast food smells and office shells
and three thousand homes in a row.