jvc wrote on Aug 25, 2008 7:35 AM:Since when has greed, or exploitation, NOT been a part
of Americana?

TaxPayer wrote on Aug 25, 2008 7:56 AM:I fully agree with Tony and appreciate what he has written. The CTA collects over $900 per teacher per year and pursues not only higher taxes but also supports mostly democratic politicians in Sacaramento that will vote right down the line for the CTA. Most of these politicians would not be able to raise a dime in support if it were not for the teacher's unions. A good portion of the Republicans are scared to go against the wishes of the CTA. The CTA not only picks and chooses the state Assembly and state senators, it also strongly supports issues that have nothing to do with education such as the homosexual agenda and anti-family agenda with hundreds of thousands of dollars. Teachers are never asked their opinion on how to spend the money. The CTA is a radical organization that has seriously hurt our state. I believe that most teachers do not agree with the social viewpoint of the CTA. It is baffling as to why the teachers do not demand that the Union represent their views.

Sickofit wrote on Aug 25, 2008 8:19 AM:I agree with Mr. Krvaric. The teachers' union is out of control and isresponsible for the budget woes being experienced in our school districts today.

Solution Guy wrote on Aug 25, 2008 8:43 AM:Get ready for the "if it so easy then why don't you become a teacher" replies from the rank and file teachers. It is part-time work, yet they get an extraordinary amount of tax dollars.

Man Club wrote on Aug 25, 2008 8:55 AM:Back to school Monday couldn't be a better day to run this article. Teachers, exhausted from their first full of work since June, will be especially bitter in their defense of our broken school system.

Sickofit wrote on Aug 25, 2008 9:10 AM:Manclub is right, the teachers will be angry to read this. The good news is that they have next Monday off to recover from a full week of work. How will they survive until then?

Right On. wrote on Aug 25, 2008 11:03 AM:The average teacher in CA with a bachelors and masters degree and 15 years experience makes $79K per year. That's outrageous! A college degreed first year CA teacher makes $35K. Can you believe it? We should pay these people much less. Thank you Tony, for spreading more right-wing misinformation and fear (parolees go free because of greedy teachers? Really?). Karl Rove would be proud.

Doing it Themselves wrote on Aug 25, 2008 11:09 AM:The author is right on. And you know what, many parents ARE doing it themselves. Who do you think is teaching the kids during their 4 hours of homework a day? Who do you think is going out and creating charter schools and opting for home school programs? The truth is, minus all the "educational" mumbo, jumbo, in an environment that requires a little discipline along with imagination and creativity, teaching most K-8 material is NOT that hard. I find it a strange correlation that as teachers have become better educated (and better paid) over the years, the performance of the schools has actually DECREASED. It's no wonder the unions won't allow performance to be used when evaluating teachers.

Performance wrote on Aug 25, 2008 11:31 AM:$35k for the first job out of college isn't bad. $79k after 15 years is pretty good. Especially since no other career in the private sector gives you so much time off. I don't understand all the complaining from teachers.

Right On. wrote on Aug 25, 2008 11:59 AM:Okay. The teachers pay is "not bad" and "pretty good." Why the outrage?

giovanni wrote on Aug 25, 2008 1:25 PM:The most important job in a democracy is that of a teacher. Yet they receive pay far below that of rock stars and pro athletes who contribute nothing to education. A democracy cannot survive a dumbed-down electorate. Bottom line: You get what you pay for.

Dirty Sanchez wrote on Aug 25, 2008 1:45 PM:Good pay, great benefits, lots of time off, great retirement plan. What is the problem? We should all have it as well as teachers.

OCEANSIDIAN wrote on Aug 25, 2008 2:29 PM:Yes, teaching in our public schools is a PART TIME JOB! It's been shown time and again that many of our teachers are IMCOMPETENT and are unqualified to teach, especially in math and the sciences. Yet the CTA makes it almost IMPOSSIBLE to remove (fire) incompetent and insubordinate teachers. Meanwhile worthy teachers must work along side the deadwood and help do their jobs too. Teaching IS important, but the system is WRONG. The CTA has evolved into the typical bloated and politically corrupt union.

Union member wrote on Aug 25, 2008 3:18 PM:The CTA represents teachers , not students, parents or anyone else. They exist to improve wages, benefits and working conditions for teachers. Why do you think they should be putting their dues anywhere else. That is the job of the administrators and parents . Get over the jealousy and make the changes you can and quit whining about the teachers cushy job; they don't whine about yours.

To Union Member wrote on Aug 25, 2008 4:02 PM:We whine because the CTA has its hands around the neck of our classrooms. Our education system is failing and teachers offer nothing but excuses.

To Oceansidian wrote on Aug 25, 2008 7:15 PM:Let me re-write your post.

Yes being a con blogger is a PART TIME JOB. It has been shown time after time that many of our cons are unqualified to blog especially about science or education. Yet the blog format makes it almost impossible to remove (fire) incompetent or insubodinate con bloggers. Meanwhile worthy bloggers must work along side the deadwood bloggers and help do their jobs too. Blogging is important but the system is wrong. Con websites and the cons that read them have evolved into the typical bloated conservatively correct founts of misinformation.

Wow wrote on Aug 25, 2008 10:45 PM:How is that education majors (ie: future teachers) as a whole consistently score in the bottom 50th percentile (bottom half, for you teachers reading this) of GE classes? And in order to teach high school in California, you need only pass a test that measures against an 8th grade knowledge base.

Craig wrote on Aug 26, 2008 12:23 AM:My wife is a teacher, it is not a glorious job as eveyone thinks. I like how articles quote the best case scenarios in terms of pay and what not. They harp on the good points and forget the horrible ones. She works on average about 10 hours a day between actual teaching, lesson plans, grading, and extra studies. She made last year (her 5th year of teaching) $44k but had to give back about $4k to cover health benefits. 3 of her friends that she went to college with all make more then she, but yet she had more schooling then two of them. They harp on teachers getting so much time off but they are only paid for the months that they work.

Johny On The Spot wrote on Aug 26, 2008 6:44 AM:The bulk of the huge salaries DO NOT go to teachers. The California school systems have too many administrators making much more than the teachers.
In a normal business enterprise a manager can supervise 50 or more employees but there is many more high paid administrators whose salaries take priority over the people who do the real work in the system.

This is what is truly causing the problem. Of course, the union will not talk about this problem. The whole system is the definition of a bureaucracy. We need to trim from the top down and watch how much the whole school system improves.

Albert Shanker wrote on Aug 26, 2008 7:44 AM:Albert Shanker was the long time president of the American Federation of Teachers not the CTA or the NEA. He died in 1997 over a decade ago. He could only sum up his personal views or the views of HIS UNION not the views of all teacher's unions certainly not the views of two unions he NEVER belonged to.

BD wrote on Aug 26, 2008 9:10 AM:Setting aside teacher compensation, I think the most frustrating problem is the lack of accountability for teachers. Short of abuse, they really can't be fired for poor or mediocre performance. Yet meanwhile, our schools fail. I agree they shoudn't shoulder all of the blame, but let's reward the good ones and fire the bad ones.

Been there Done that wrote on Aug 26, 2008 9:17 AM:I graduated with a BSE in the 70's, taught 4 years and then quit to become a waitress so I could pay my bills, including my tuition loan. It is a thankless job, and if you think being forced to have the summer off, unpaid, is so much fun, why don't you try living every year for 3 months without an income. In addition, that 4 hours of homework you are helping your children with each night will have to be graded by someone. When you are sitting in front of your televisions every night watching your sitcoms, teachers are grading your children's, tests, essays, etc. Did I ever go back to teaching? No way!

Billy wrote on Aug 26, 2008 9:36 AM:Protecting the teachers rights and assuring that they get a fair deal in their pay, medical plan, and retirement is the purpose of the union - nothing else. However, if in their activities they do things that are detrimental to the students that is clearly unacceptable.
If the union goes so far as to protect substandard teachers or other employees who belong to their union that also is unacceptable.
The organization of our government allows for the protection of citizens and their children and it appears that our representatives are not doing their job. It is not as if the parents have not spoken up, or as if the media has not brought the subject problem forward. And yet, nothing is done about it.
The future of our country, long after I am gone, is being placed at risk.
I would do just as well to go to the middle of the ocean and shout my frustration for all the good it will do.
We the people are allowing situation such as this to degrade and debase our education systems which will, and is, dragging us down to a second rate country. Because you see, our country of the future will be determined by the education and moral training of our present students. And when we do not demand that our teachers and administrators in our education systems conform to standards of high professionalism and of what is right and wrong, we can stand in our stepped back positions and watch the deterioration of our country.
I first joined a union at age 17 and though I am retired I am still an associate, dues paying, member.

other union member wrote on Aug 26, 2008 10:06 AM:I saw Jonh Sweeney, president of the AFL-CIO being interviewed by Neil Cavuto a few days ago; he was whining about Walmart (amongst other things) management providing employees with a list of politicians it supports; exactly what the Teamsters, AFL-CIO, the NEA, and I imagine all unions do for their members. The Teamsters union steals money from it’s members dues and supports every low-life democrat at every level of government imaginable.

Mike S. wrote on Aug 26, 2008 10:09 AM:Anyone with above-average math or science aptitude can get a job with less stress and more remuneration than a career in teaching. Thankfully there are some people for whom teaching is a true calling and they'll take the lower pay and high stress, but for the most part the market operates to drive the best and brightest away from teaching. Is this what you want? It appears so.

time off wrote on Aug 26, 2008 10:23 AM:A misnomer about unpaid summers: the fact is that teachers can choose to be paid year round, or just for the nine months they actually "work". In addition, teachers that choose to teach summer school get 1/2 pay for working four hours per day with no homework to grade. Let's not also forget the two weeks off for Christmas break, one whole week for Thanksgiving, another whole week off for "spring break" plus every holiday ever created. My daughter gets a whole week off in February for "President's Week". Tough gig...boo hoo for the teachers and their PAC union.

Race to the Bottom wrote on Aug 26, 2008 10:54 AM:It's so ironic how we deplore the shipping of jobs overseas, and demand human rights and safe working conditions in the third-world that produce our cheap stuff, but we get made at unions who fight for reasonable wages and benefits for their employees. Mr. Krvaric, should be have a minimum wage, a 40-hour work week, OSHA, child labor laws, or anti-discrimination laws? Tell us what you, and the Republican Party you lead, think of those labor laws think of these laws that did not exist until workers were permitted to bargain collectively. If you don't think they're a good thing, don't complain about American jobs going overseas.

No Job is Perfect wrote on Aug 26, 2008 12:27 PM:No job is perfect. Teaching is not all smiles and hugs and laughing with the kids. It's not all about those moments when a student's eyes light up when they finally "get it". Like any other job, it's a grind, day in and day out. Some jobs require a person to work late, some don't. Some allow more time off, some don't. But the bottom line is that nobody wants to hear someone whine about their job, especially when they might be out working hard at what they do as well. With every occupation, there is work to do, and if the work isn't getting done, then the folks that are lagging should "move on" to something they can, or are willing, to do. That's what this is really all about. To many, many parents, it doesn't appear that a lot of teachers, a minority I admit, are doing their job. And the union makes it impossible to do anything about this. 4 hours of homework for a kid in grade school is an indication that something is really wrong in the classroom. Kids being promoted when they haven't learned the material is an indication that something is really wrong in the classroom. And again, the union blocks changes that might fix this. It's like having a rich, alcoholic uncle who has a really big problem, but is not just in complete denial, he also has the resources to make sure he STAYS in denial. Until the union, or at least a majority of the teachers, realize they are part of a system that isn't working, there will be very little that can be done to fix it.

to been there done that wrote on Aug 26, 2008 12:31 PM:Thank you for not teaching.

If only all of the other teachers with your horrible attitude would do the same. I believe that would solve the problem. In fact most with your attitude put in the few years it takes to get tenured and then coast on thru to retirement.

Keep the children wrote on Aug 26, 2008 12:33 PM:home, home schooling is the way to go. At least you don't have to worry about teachers molesting them.

to Billy wrote on Aug 26, 2008 12:38 PM:very well said. However there is something we can do.

When you go to polls make sure the candidate you select for schools board is not endorsed by the union. Do a little research, rember 1/2 of your property taxes are in the control the little old School Board that nobody thinks is important! If you elect a union endorsed candidate you are letting them in to control your tax dollars any ways they chose. They will always chose there members and self way before your kids.

To Union Member wrote on Aug 26, 2008 12:58 PM:I don't like to hear anyone whine about their job. And what we seem to be hearing is an awful lot of whining from the teachers about how they have it so rough, are saving the world through education, and aren't paid enough. They're running commercials using kids! How much whinier can you get? And, the kids are failing on top of that! If teachers want to talk the talk, they better be walking the walk, especially on the taxpayers dime.

to race to the bottom wrote on Aug 26, 2008 12:58 PM:Let’s not forget it’s your union dollars that are being used politically to drive taxes up so high that that job producing industry is fleeing this state and country everyday. Those that do stay have to charge a higher non competitive fee in order to make a profit. Lower taxes produce more jobs that allow industry to produce goods at a globally competitive price. Your union is a major contribute to jobs going overseas. Those companies overseas do not care one bit about OSHA, child labor laws, or anti-discrimination laws. Basically the union and their political weight is putting many of its member and potential members out of work. Giving those jobs to Countries that don’t care one bit about labor issues. Look at the auto industry and how many jobs have been lost. All your unions have done is force the US auto companies to pay so much that they became less competitive and now look at how many jobs are being lost every day to overseas companies. Keep up the good work, your union are winning the "race to the bottom"!

Writing Analyst wrote on Aug 26, 2008 1:30 PM:This opinion piece is so riddled with emotional baggage it's laughable. Here's a list from just the first three sentences:

sick, abusive power
held captive
bearing the brunt
lies
pawns
fraudulent

--and that's just the tip of the iceberg.

The point is that this writer is not making a rational argument, as is evident from the many repeated slurs and emotional attacks.

Get with it. California spends one of the lowest dollar amounts per child for education and one of the highest for prisoners. Try to logic that one away.

Reardon wrote on Aug 26, 2008 3:54 PM:California schools ranking 48th nationally (federal National Report Card), while their teacher rank number one in teacher pay -- California schools have a LONG way to go.

It is the delta between what we pay teachers and the results we get that is disturbing.

So here is a suggestion: We pay teachers an average to rank equal to our students' National Report Card of the previous year!

JSten wrote on Aug 26, 2008 4:03 PM:Howard Johnson is right!

Lets wire the governor!

Alf wrote on Aug 26, 2008 4:15 PM:Well, "giovanni" at 1:25PM,
I agree that teachers should be paid well.
If they produce results.
California has the highest paid teachers in the nation.
California students RANK at or near the lowest in the nation.
In what "profession" would the production of an ever decreasing quality of product be tolerated,
worse yet,
have the worker be given raises while producing a progressively poorer quality product?
Regards, Alf.

to Writing Analyst wrote on Aug 26, 2008 4:24 PM:you criticize with no real "meaningful" options.

to Writing Analyst wrote on Aug 26, 2008 5:10 PM:Is this all you have? You attempt (feebly) to discredit someone's opinion just because they are passionate in their argument? That is laughable.

Manny wrote on Aug 26, 2008 7:21 PM:For all of you critics of teachers and their pay and time off, if it is so great - why don't you become teachers? I would offer that it is more work than you think, my friend. Quick complaining and teach if it is easiest job in the world. I bet you don't last three years.

Reardon wrote on Aug 26, 2008 9:03 PM:Manny: Reardon spent 6,000 classroom hours teaching at the graduate and undergraduate levels of a university.

Teachers were my students in both the School of Education courses, and in core courses for everyone.

Am I permitted to comment on the abysmal record of teaching in California public schools?

jvc wrote on Aug 26, 2008 9:31 PM:It seems a mute point about all the advantages teachers have as stated in these blogs IF teachers were teaching
effectively!Raisng the bar for teaching
credentials needs to increased ten-fold!
The baby sitter mentality of teaching is obsolete!
All teachers should be required to have a BS in science and math to have acquired the academic discipline necessary for teaching!

Even if wrote on Aug 26, 2008 9:35 PM:it were the last job on Earth I wouldn't be a K-12 teacher in Ca.! There isn't enough pay or benefits or time off in the world to make it worth it to absorb all of this hostility.

To All wrote on Aug 26, 2008 9:52 PM:Next time you get paid for overtime thank a union. Next time you get workers comp, thank a union. Next time you get disability insurance thank a union. Unions fought for these rights and now everyone enjoys them.

California Teacher wrote on Aug 26, 2008 9:53 PM:I am a teacher. I never whine about my job. I love what I do and think that I really do make a positive difference in the lives of children and their families. I would like people to stop complaining about the job they think they know something about. They don't realize that I work 50+ hours per week at school and another five per week at home. They don't realize that I prepare many days during the summer for the following school year. They don't realize that I always use at least one vacation day to prepare for our return to school. They don't realize that my salary is based on the 184 days that I work on the books, not a regular year. They don't realize I spend at least $1000 per year on my classroom, and I've been teaching for over a decade. People who don't love it, should get out of the profession. Don't complain about the job that teachers do, until you really know what the job entails. It is more that it has ever been. It is harder than it has ever been. The expectations really are higher than they've ever been.

To Reardon wrote on Aug 26, 2008 9:58 PM:California schools also rank 27th in per pupil spending. Almost 1,000 below the national average. Ironically that when we were 1st in the 70's we also ranked in the top 5 for spending. You get what you pay for.

To JVC wrote on Aug 26, 2008 10:02 PM:Your comment shows your lack of understanding what it takes to be a teacher. To teach at the secondary level you have to pass a test specific to your content or have a major in your content area and pass the test. For example, if you wish to teach math then you need to pass the CSET in math. That test covers algebra to calculus. According to the US Census Bureau we have one of the toughest teacher credentialing process in the nation

Trageser is right wrote on Aug 26, 2008 10:03 PM:Trageser is more often right than wrong. He hit the nail on the head. I'm glad he's writing again.
He's unpredictable and brings an attitude to the forum page.
Tnx NCT

Reardon wrote on Aug 26, 2008 10:19 PM:To To Reardon: So, with our teachers ranked number one in pay, and our spending overall ranking 27th, we should rank somewhere between 1-27; but we rank 48th.

Why is THIS? One writer says we get what we pay for.

No, we don't!

Yeah k per year wrote on Aug 26, 2008 10:43 PM:isn't "bad" --if you're still living with your parents! Seriously! By the time you make your student loan payment, your car & insurance payment and all the other costs associated with living, you'll be lucky if there's enough left to cover your portion of the rent for a studio that you share with a roommate!

carmen wrote on Aug 26, 2008 11:19 PM:Has anyone looked at the curriculum? If it was so great,why are parents spending 2-4 hours per child,each night with homework?? Teachers can only teach the approved curriculum and if it stinks, then what are the kids learning? It's not the teachers salaries that has dropped CA to #47- It's the CA Dept of Education that has final approval over what is taught in the classroom and they have failed our kids.

To Been There wrote on Aug 27, 2008 12:16 AM:School has changed quite a lot since the 1970's. Parents still help their children with the ridiculous amount of homework they get. However teachers now get their teaching plans from the internet and have students grade each others papers.

To Manny wrote on Aug 27, 2008 12:31 AM:Tell you what. I'm a nurse with 20+ years experience. I've worked weekends, holidays, nights while on my feet the entire shift with no breaks. Teachers with the same amount of experience make more than I do. I would love to switch jobs with you. I bet you wouldn't last 3 weeks.

jvc wrote on Aug 27, 2008 2:48 AM:What does it take to be a good teacher?

To Carmen wrote on Aug 27, 2008 9:48 AM:I don't disagree, but who pulls the strings for Dept of Education? Politicians do. And who pulls the strings of the politicians? The CTA does. That's exactly the point. I don't for one minute think that teaching is easy, or that there aren't a lot of good teachers, or that they are over paid. The problem is simple. Kids are not being educated the way they should be, and the CTA stands OPPOSED to improving anything but the pocketbooks of the teachers. Now I know, they are a union, and that's their job. No problem there from my perspective. But, they should not be controlling education in the state. They have an inherent conflict of interest, that in any other situation would probably be deemed illegal. The autoworkers union does not control the auto industry. The flight attendants union does not control the airlines. The carpenters union does not control the building industry. It would be suicide for those businesses to allow that. But this is exactly what has developed in the education "business" here in CA. The more powerful the unions have become, the poorer the quality of the product they produce. Why is this OK? For all the blogs I've seen here, I still haven't seen a singe person give us a single good reason why the CTA should CONTROL the education of our kids.

To all wrote on Aug 27, 2008 5:53 PM:CTA is against high stakes testing but it exist. CTA is against NCLB but it exist. The CTA wants class size reduction across the board but it does not exist. They only got k-3 reduction. What are they getting that is so bad...please tell.

To Reardon wrote on Aug 27, 2008 5:57 PM:According to your logic, if we rank 27th in per pupil spending then we should rank 1-27...that would also mean that we should rank between 27-50. Broken logic. Also, according to the NEA, your source, when teacher pay is adjusted for cost of living. CA ranks 39th. Give all the facts.

jvc wrote on Aug 28, 2008 7:22 AM:Would the unions exist without the approval of their members? No, the unions are not greedy....put the blame
for greed where it belongs, the teachers!

California teacher wrote on Aug 30, 2008 7:32 PM:Teachers have to pay union dues. They can opt out of being represented by the union, but they must still pay dues. It is a necessary evil. Good teachers do not need the protection of the union and are aware that it often protects teacher that should not be teaching. What can we do about it? We need the union just in case there is a misguided parent that makes false accusations about God knows what. It is kind of like insurance.

CA teacher wrote on Sep 1, 2008 10:03 PM:Yes, as a temporary teacher, I was "let go" for being a union representative. Don't join the union until you have tenure in a district!

jvc wrote on Sep 2, 2008 5:02 AM:Okay, I will accept teacher's greed and
be happy for them being greedy but first we
must require that they complete a BS
degree in math that will certify not only their intelligence but including
acquiring the academic discipline to teach!No more certifying teachers on the grounds that they have the look
of a teacher when pursuing their credentials, a credential that must be far more astringent!