LAKE ELSINORE: Panhandlers puzzled by proposed ordinance
Some question need for more bureaucracy
By AARON CLAVERIE - Staff Writer | ∞
Chris Fredericks, shown here with her dog Lace, has lived in Lake Elsinore for six years. Fredericks says she supports a proposed panhandling ordinance in the city because she tries to be courteous when asking for money. LAKE ELSINORE ---- A proposed crackdown on "aggressive" panhandling has some of the city's self-described courteous beggars scratching their heads.
"What is 'aggressive' really?" asked a young man who identified himself as Robert.
It was about 10:30 a.m. on a weekday and Robert, who did not give his last name, was sitting at a table in the city park at the end of Main Street with a woman dubbed Granny, a 72-year-old who said she has lived in Lake Elsinore for more than 40 years.
Shawn Bhutta, a member of the city's Public Safety Advisory Commission, said in a telephone interview that he would define "aggressive panhandling" as asking someone for money more than once or following someone.
The issue has been thrust into the public forum since the commission recently asked city employees to write up an ordinance that addresses the sensitive topic.
"I was told that on one occasion there was a woman walking to the store carrying her child and a panhandler chased her down for money. This is not just aggressive, but point-blank scary," Bhutta said.
Both Robert and Granny say they take advantage of the services offered by the area's food pantries and charities. Granny said she stays with her daughter at night and spends time in the park by day.
Granny, who carries some of her belongings in a shopping cart, said she doesn't have a home of her own but added that she's planning to move into a new place with her daughter on the first of the month. Robert, who looked to be about 20 or so, didn't say where he sleeps at night but he said he has had a job recently.
Robert said he has asked people for money during his time on the streets, but he found the idea of "aggressive" panhandling amusing and imagined how it might go down: "Give me your money, fool!" he said, laughing.
Granny, talking about the commission members proposing the ordinance, said, "They'd be panhandling if they were out there hungry. Try helping someone. Try doing something for them."
Some of the other panhandlers interviewed on a recent morning had heard about the commission's request for an ordinance to be drafted, but they were vague on specifics. Some wondered why an ordinance was necessary as the city already has laws on the books that address loitering and robbery.
If the ordinance is eventually approved by the commission, it will be sent to the City Council, which will have the final say on whether it is adopted, said Mark Dennis, the city's spokesman.
Dennis said the city employees tasked with writing the ordinance will be using existing ordinances in other cities to put together a legally defensible piece of city code that will prohibit soliciting when people are standing near ATMs or loading groceries into their car ---- moments, he says, when "people feel vulnerable."
The ordinance also is expected to address panhandlers who sit in the public right of way, such as the offramp of a freeway or the median of a street.
The commission took up the issue in response to complaints from members of the public and some of the city's businesses, Dennis said.
Earlier this year, the council adopted one of the commission's proposed ordinances that moved newspaper racks away from the city's curbs. Last year, the council adopted the commission's graffiti ordinance, which beefed up penalties for taggers.
Bhutta said he agrees with the rest of the commission that the city's residents shouldn't be harassed by panhandlers. But he said any new ordinance should be enforceable.
"We keep creating ordinances and keep giving ourselves pats on the back, but what is the point of creating something and not being able to implement it?" Bhutta asked, referencing the graffiti ordinance.
That ordinance is triggered when police catch someone in the act, which Bhutta said is "difficult to accomplish."
On Aug. 8, the Friday night that found many people huddled in front of TVs watching the opening ceremony of the Olympics, there was a clear-cut example of "aggressive" panhandling.
According to police, officers arrested a panhandler who allegedly beat up a man near the Jack in the Box on Riverside Drive after the man didn't give him money for cigarettes. The victim was taken to a local hospital for treatment of his injuries and the attacker was arrested, city records show.
Both Robert and Granny had heard about the incident and they knew the attacker had been "locked up."
"He got the axe," Robert said.
As they talked, a man named Nathan approached their table. He sat down and ripped apart an egg salad sandwich that he picked up at one of the "feedings" offered by an area charitable organization. Nathan gave Robert half of the sandwich and he started rolling a cigarette.
Nathan, who also did not give his last name, said the proposed ordinance sounds like typical "bureaucracy B.S." and an attempt by someone to make a political name for himself.
Nathan said he takes care to respect people who either don't or can't part with their change.
"I say 'God bless' and go on my way. I try to treat other people as I would want to be treated. It's one of the things I picked up from my dad," Nathan said.
Told of the comments made by the group at the park, Bhutta said "professional panhandling" is a serious issue in Lake Elsinore.
"There wouldn't be a need for further laws if there wasn't a problem," he said.
Over on a stretch of Riverside Drive ---- just west of an AM-PM gas station on the corner of Lakeshore Drive ---- Chris Fredericks was sitting on a masonry wall with a dog, Lace, at her feet. The pair had just come from a shaded corner near a Dumpster in front of the station's minimarket.
A minimarket employee walked toward Fredericks and told her she was not allowed to sit on company property.
"If I see you again, I'm going to call the police," the employee said.
Fredericks, a 41-year-old who has lived in the city for about six years, said she wasn't discouraged or upset about the threat.
"This town has been a blessing to me," she said, talking about the people who have helped her and the organizations that provide food and clothing.
Asked about the proposed panhandling ordinance, Fredericks, wearing a bikini top and pleated trousers, said she supports the idea because she tries to be as courteous as possible when asking for help.
"I know what's up in the world," she said, describing her ability to spot kind and generous people by the color of the cars they drive. "It's the idiots and drunks out there. They don't know what's up in the world."
Contact staff writer Aaron Claverie at (951) 676-4315, Ext. 2624, or aclaverie@californian.com.
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I dont give wrote on Aug 29, 2008 9:38 PM:Don't be fooled. Many panhandlers make over $300 bucks a day. They do it just like a business. Most of your good hearted cash goes for drugs, booze, and smokes.
Id rather buy the orangesroses wrote on Aug 29, 2008 10:10 PM:I have yet to see a latino panhandler, and it makes me sick to see people like Chris Fredericks, who seems very capable of working, and is here legally, exploiting the good heartedness of the people... this country should be deporting people like her!! not the day laborers who beg, but beg for WORK!! The L.E. ordinance should forbid any kind of panhandling, not just the 'agressive' kind...
Reporter wrote on Aug 29, 2008 10:37 PM:Great coverage by this reporter. It is nice to see someone who investigates, does research and then writes his story. There are too many reporters out there who just start writing before getting the facts straight. Good work Mr. Claverie. I agree with our city that there is a need for this ordinance. It is pretty scary when someone chases you down and asks, "hey brother you got some loose change". How many times have you heard that? These beggers always find you alone in a dark corner of the street. These people are professionals, don't buy their BS.
Way to Go wrote on Aug 29, 2008 11:26 PM:Kudos to this reporter, very well written story. These panhandlers do get aggresive when they don't make/get enough by the end of the day. Some of them look well enough to get a job like the rest of us. Professional panhandlers need to go elsewhere, our city needs to have a better image for travelers and tourists. This city still has a long way to go yet. I agree with city officials.
Me either wrote on Aug 30, 2008 5:11 AM:I agree. You're a fool if you give these bozos money. It's impossible to starve to death in America unless you're physically incapable of getting yourself to the numerous organizations that provide a very generous safety net for the "unlucky" and lazy.
How about wrote on Aug 30, 2008 7:46 AM:Can someone just give this people some help. I'm talking about a one way trip to indio or somewhere in the desert so whe don't have to see them again, make them someone elses problem.
Isn't this the way our goverment deals with "ISUES"
To Way to Go wrote on Aug 30, 2008 7:55 AM:I agree with you. You called them "professional panhandlers", you are right they are professionals. They think panhandling is their job as they all have designated spots where no one else can beg....
Minister wrote on Aug 30, 2008 8:52 AM:I agree with all the comments. There is a difference between getting help from local charitable organizations and standing by a store and asking for money. I like that you refer them to as "professionals". I have seen some fights among these panhandlers when someone else tried to beg at one's designated spot. Yes, there is a need for this ordinance.
stop giving wrote on Aug 30, 2008 9:18 AM:If people would stop giving money to these people they would move on to another area. I hate walking past these people every time I go to Albertsons. It's pretty aggressive to sit in front of a no soliciting sign and ask for money. Now they even taken up pretending to read the Bible. Trying to convince people they are christians.
Disagree wrote on Aug 30, 2008 9:53 AM:I disagree with yo all, panhandling should be allowed on some occasions. My friend owed me a lot of money and he tried to work but people kept firing him then he decided to panhandle and within 6 months he paid me back almost $6,000 that he owed me. He is not a prfessional, he is a person in need.
wow wrote on Aug 30, 2008 10:08 AM:Disagree, I gotta disagree. A person who can panhandle $6,000 in six months, like it or not, is a professional! Good story. I don't necessarily agree it's really investigative or well-researched as it is well-voiced, but it does shine light on an issue that needs to be addressed in our city.
cluless wrote on Aug 30, 2008 1:05 PM:"Diagree" you are clueless. That is why we need new ordinances for people like you and your friends.
To The Racist Above wrote on Aug 30, 2008 1:24 PM:You do not see Latino panhandlers because anyone other then an American White Person can get the goverment to help then in any way or form, if your white you get nothing.
wow pt wrote on Aug 30, 2008 1:43 PM:come on you guys, let's not let this devolve into an argument for or against illegal immigration. Panhandlers, regardless of race, are an issue.
unbelievable wrote on Aug 30, 2008 2:22 PM:I have never heard so much hate coming from all of you..Not everyone is as fortunate as others.If jesus came knocking at your door,would you turn him away too.Ive helped fredericks and her dog, Wow did it make me feel good.My husband and myself arnt very well off,but we know the lord will give back what weve put out.I think you have a sence of knowing whos using what for the wrong reasons.
To unbelievable wrote on Aug 30, 2008 3:06 PM:I'm glad that by giving it makes you feel good. However, you are enabling these people to continue their life style. This woman in particular is young and appears to be healthy. Instead of panhandling she should find a job, any job. I am sure there are many people who at one time or another have had it rough, but they found a way. It's called pride, guts and fortitude. I personally have been in position of no money and no place to go and refused to give up. Besides many of these people are begging and using the money for drugs and or alcohol. Also, to paraphrase, give a man a fish and you feed him for a day, teach him to fish and he will always have food.
Board wrote on Aug 30, 2008 3:46 PM:Mr. Unbeliveable, read the article again...the city officials are not talking about good people like Fredericks who has a real need, LETS not make this into a religious issue. Safety for all citizens is the issue!!!
To Board wrote on Aug 31, 2008 11:29 AM:In six years, Ms Fredericks is still on the street? All this so called help is obviously not really helping her. She is taking and taking more. Giving her food and clothing is not enough. She needs a job and a place to live so that she can become self sufficient. She does have a nice tan, though.
Dude wrote on Aug 31, 2008 11:40 AM:The reason you don't see Latino panhandlers is because they took all the jobs poor "white" people used to do!
to dude wrote on Sep 1, 2008 9:43 PM:selling oranges and flowers in the street corner? is that what white poor people used to do? HAHAHAHA!!!! you are hilarious!!! I didn't know those 'jobs' were in such high demand! you probably are one of those 'unlucky' few that got displaced from your 'thriving' orange corner selling job! Selling oranges/flowers/etc, shows how latinos are here to work, and work hard, no matter what, but they will not panhandle as they did not cross miles and miles to stand in a corner and freeload. Some 61 percent of welfare recipients are White, while 33 percent are Black, according to Census Bureau statistics, the latest figures available. So to the ignorant 'to the racist above' comment, latinos get a tiny speck of the welfare pie, as there is too much pride in the community as a whole to want to go on welfare, as well as fear of getting caught as illegals. LAZY PANHANDLERS, IT"S TIME FOR YOU TO GET A J-O-B, WE ALL KNOW YOU CAN, SHAME ON YOU FOR NOT TAKING THE OPPORTUNITIES AVAILABLE HAVING BEEN BORN IN THE GREATEST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD!
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