Propaganda wrote on Sep 9, 2008 12:18 PM:The schools say they are doing wonderful teaching our children. Well which is it?

Tim wrote on Sep 9, 2008 12:45 PM:This is obviously not the case if more than 1 in 20 students can not pass 8th grade math after 12 years in school.

Hey propaganda wrote on Sep 9, 2008 12:52 PM:Have you seen the graduation test? Would you be willing to take it? I wonder what percentage of a randomly picked group of adult Americans would pass this test? Would adult Americans pass at a higher rate, same rate or a lower rate? I wish we had data.

It is so hard to judge whther these tests are easy, fair or too hard without seeing them or seeing the questions they ask.

Does anyone know a website where samples of the test questions might be found?

Leta wrote on Sep 9, 2008 1:05 PM:I am so glad my Mom didn't leave me to the Public Schools. Yes I went to public schools, but my mother took an active part in my life and my education, not just trying to provide more things I didn't need.

john wrote on Sep 9, 2008 1:14 PM:i love school :)

To Hey Propaganda wrote on Sep 9, 2008 1:38 PM:Yes I would. For crying out loud, it's 10th grade English and 8th grade math. I would HOPE that by the 12th grade with college or a job, in most of these students minds, they should know 8th grade math and 10th grade English.

Paul wrote on Sep 9, 2008 1:49 PM:I saw parts of a sample exam, easy for me, but then I have quite a bit of education. But not to worry folks, this is why Palomar (that institution for post high school continuation) got that 2.9 mil dollar grant.

Leta wrote on Sep 9, 2008 1:57 PM:RE: Hey Propaganda

The fact that most people couldn't pass it also proves that what we are taught we don't use. If we used it, we would be able to pass the test. Public education is haphazard to say the least.

Disconnect wrote on Sep 9, 2008 3:08 PM:Didn't we just see headlines that test scores are improving? Is it any wonder schools can't live within their means and need money all the time? One day test scores increasing the next day, kids can't pass the tests. We need VOUCHERS NOW!!

Gringo wrote on Sep 9, 2008 3:14 PM:Why isn't the ACLU on here chiming in about unfair disadvantage discrimination against lower intelligent, less fortunate, lower income families, having to raise IQ deficient kids due to lack of resources supplied for free by legal citizens tax moneys? Claiming they're being singled out because of their race and ethnicity.

Leta wrote on Sep 9, 2008 3:17 PM:The politicians love your type. Keep them dumb, uninformed and uneducated. That way they can be manipulated.

Cardiffian wrote on Sep 9, 2008 3:38 PM:Actually, this is very scary. If you can't pass a test in fundemental high school math or science, how can you interpret and understand the world around you? What tools do you have to understand or discuss climate change, the economic meltdown, foreign policy and wars? he scariest part is the less knowledge someone has, the more likely they are to take things at face value, and the more likely they will be swayed by emotional arguements rather than logical ones. After awhile, you find that people think creationism is science and wonder why it's not taught in a biology class!

Greg in Oceanside wrote on Sep 9, 2008 4:10 PM:These statistics are abysmal. And of course, there are those who want to pass the buck and blame the schools, teachers, the test itself, or think it's one big government conspiracy. Sheesh, when are people going to quit sniveling about this?

It's time for parents to take responsibility for their child's academic success and not put the burden on someone else. Turn off the TV and video games, take the skateboard and cell phone away, restrict the YouTube and internet chat and surfing, and be a parent for crying out loud!

My own kids are doing great, and are testing in the high range in the standardized tests, so sitting with them every night is paying off. To those adults who can't pass the test, this is probably a reflection of what you didn't learn when you were in school. And no, I'm not buying any 'pass-the-buck' responses and excuses.

I luv public wrote on Sep 9, 2008 4:50 PM:school over and over again:)

Exactly wrote on Sep 9, 2008 5:11 PM:Leta-
You are so correct. It's also important to note that the reason why so many obscure things are required is because of the politicians who make it so. Most teachers I know do not like what they are forced to teach, but it's not their decision. For example, is there any reason why French is taught as a foreign language in most schools? How about something more useful like Mandarin or Japanese?

a high school graduate... wrote on Sep 9, 2008 5:49 PM:I took the test and you have to be down and out not to pass it. real easy

FTM wrote on Sep 9, 2008 5:49 PM:In Oceanside Ken Noonan has raised the childrens scores so they are above the socio-economic level they came from. Many Oceanside students come from poor broken families infected with gang culture and don't even speak english at home. Ken Noonan brough ALL the Oceanside students up to the level of thier wealthier counterparts in San Marcos and Ramona. When Oceanside students are scoring the same as Carlsbad and Poway in a few years, (don't laugh - they are on track)- then we will really appreciate how Ken Noonan has changed education in Oceanside. Education is always an FTM issue: (Follow The Money) > Whomever has the most money get's the best education.
There are districts around the country where the poor students out score even the rich private schools (thats VERY rare) but it does happen due to good school employees and parents who do what they can.
Bottom line - You still can't trust the government to dole out an equal education for your kids. It's more important how the COMMUNITY supports the school. For some poor schools, that's all they got.

th Grade HS Diploma wrote on Sep 9, 2008 7:05 PM:WHAT? If they can't pass 8th grade math nor comprehend 10th grade English, why are they even high school seniors?! No pass, no pass. Please test the educators and administrators.

Gregs right wrote on Sep 9, 2008 8:15 PM:I agree 100%. In most cases, I do think that teachers are working as hard as they can to make all students successful - but the parent does play a crucial (or SHOULD) role in their child's education. Can you imagine the challenge teachers must have today - especially in high school - with all of the "gadgets" available these days? You must have to be one entertaining teacher to compete with that. Kids are very adept at using these devices without the knowledge of the teacher, too.

It's too bad there is so much negative banter on these blogs between the two sides. In the end it only hurts the kids and they learn not to respect their teachers - further exacerbating the "not paying attention in class" problem.

resident wrote on Sep 9, 2008 8:21 PM:Cardiffian - LOL. Great comment about creationism. I'm surprised none of our religious right uptight parents hasn't nailed you on that one. BTW, I work at a school where every single student is poor enough to qualify for free lunch and none of their parents is a college graduate. Yet 100% of our students passed the CAHSEE on their first try. It CAN be done!

Wow wrote on Sep 9, 2008 8:46 PM:Resident - that is incredible!! What steps did the teachers take to ensure 100% success, especially on the first try? I think that's amazing for any demographic, but especially for one in which all students qualify for free lunches. Can you share what school you teach at and what the population size is? Congratulations.

A closer look wrote on Sep 9, 2008 10:49 PM:The Classical Academy High gave the exit exam to five 10th graders. They all failed.

The Classical Academy High School is the only high school (of seven Escondido high schools) to give this test to 10th graders.

There are now five 16 year old kids walking the streets of North County with no high school diploma, no hope of college, no job, and no future!

This charter school has done a disservice to these kids and our community.

Whose the real failure? The kids or this school...

To A closer look wrote on Sep 9, 2008 10:58 PM:Every high school in Escondido gives the test to their 10th graders. They have to. It's the law.

FYI, at Orange Glen High School, 81% passed the English portion on their first attempt last year. 80.5% passed math on their first attempt. Pretty darned good.

concerned wrote on Sep 10, 2008 12:12 AM:How many of the students who didn't pass or aren't taking the test are engish as second language. How can teachers teach a student in 10th grade when they just arrived in the US and have only a 4th grade education?

If my car doesnt wrote on Sep 10, 2008 6:08 AM:work I take it to a mechanic if it still doesn't work, I take it to another mechanic who can do the job. Am I understood teachers and unions? You are just why home schooling is now the chosen choice for educating young minds.

No Fan of Charter Schools wrote on Sep 10, 2008 6:27 AM:A Closer Look claims the Classical Academy Charter High School has done a disservice to some students or former students.

Charter schools are basically for kids who struggle and don't do well in the traditional school systems for a reason, most of which is their fault or their parent's. A large percentage of the studies are completed independently at home. Bottom line, they are not very effective, and don't teach any conformity to social norms, something essential for success in the work-a-day world. Not too many good colleges are going to look at kids from charter schools.

I've never been the fan of charter schools because they only serve to 'enable' kids who previously rejected school because they don't want to get up in the morning to be at an appointed place, which is a classical trait of a lazy person. I have a stepson who I had no control over and blame his mother for his scholastic failures, who didn't do well in traditional school. He didn't do his homework because he was too busy skateboarding, playing video games, watching skateboarding videos, and didn't even graduate from junior high with his class. This stepson eventually went to a charter school for his high school years. My own children from a previous marriage did well all the way through traditional schools because their mother and I were on top it.

Preparing kids for graduating starts in kindergarten and continues all the way through school and parents play a huge role, if not the most important one. So to put blame on schools is weak and a classical case of 'passing the buck.'

What wrote on Sep 10, 2008 6:27 AM:Even after leaving high school they can continue to take the exit exam?How are they able to graduate if they don't pass the test?

to a closer look wrote on Sep 10, 2008 6:40 AM:80% passing does sound pretty darn good. until you find out that a passing grade on these tests is 50%. Dosent sound all that impressive all of the sudden does it?

No Way wrote on Sep 10, 2008 7:03 AM:Hey propaganda: All the nay sayers need to wake up to a fact. They have forgotten more than the students may have learned.
Same way with college graduates. I believe that we would have to retake our previously passed courses.

ACLU wrote on Sep 10, 2008 7:04 AM:Gringo[-] wrote on Sep 9, 2008 3:14 PM Because the ACLU probably does not share your opinion.

No wonder I can never wrote on Sep 10, 2008 7:43 AM:get the right change at the fast food restuarants.

Chubton wrote on Sep 10, 2008 8:00 AM:Let's try cutting the funding to schools and see if things improve.
Maybe we can export more jobs in the process, too.

Paco wrote on Sep 10, 2008 8:09 AM:Greg, I agree with much of what you say, but there are some flaws with your theory. Parents do play a huge role in a child's education and development. Take a look at society today though. There are a large number of single parents who work multiple jobs in order to survive. This lack of supervision and quality time parents are supposed to spend with their children just isn't there. That is the fault of the parents of course, but when we send our children to six plus hours of education every day and there is no real progress, then doesn't the teacher shoulder some of the blame? I am not placing the complete blame on the teacher, but let's face it. Who is paid to TEACH our children? It is the teacher. This is the reason for the NCLB act. We shouldn't be pouring money into a school that cannot hold their teachers accountable. How are they held accountable? By looking at these test scores and see who is doing their job. Is it a perfect system? Of course not, but there needs to be some sort of checks and balances involved.

Oh so we see wrote on Sep 10, 2008 8:54 AM:it isn't the schools that are wrong, it isn't society that is wrong. IT IS THE PARENTS FAULT! Toss all of these bums out, go to Mexico and teach!

Crying wolf wrote on Sep 10, 2008 9:02 AM:To those who feel education is solely left to institutions - how is it that an immigrant not even from this country can get a 1510 on my SAT? I immigrated from Japan 6 years ago. In my country, education is everything...and I have taken initiative to learn this language for the past 6 years. How are my writing skills?

Spouse of Teacher wrote on Sep 10, 2008 9:10 AM:Paco, you make some points, but you still validate claims about parents being chiefly responsible for their child's academic success, whether a parent is raising a child alone or not. And education isn't limited to the time kids are sitting in a classroom; it's the whole ball of wax. By this, it is what was/is done to prepare kids for school beginning in pre-kindergarten that is the key. Kids need to be mentally challenged their whole life with positive experiences and not 'enabled' to take the easy way out, namely lazy.

Most, if not all, schools hold their teachers accountable. If you only knew the things teacher do, and have to put up with from the studenst (and even parents) you'd be appalled. My spouse teaches first grade and has problem kids this early in their scholastic career. In fact my spouse had to pull a defiant student out of class yesterday for a variety of reasons, and this isn't the first time and they've only been in school for two weeks! And this student isn't the first in my spouse's career either. Growing up in the Midwest, we didn't have this sort of behavior happening, especially in first grade. This student comes from a broken home and the parent doesn't speak much English, so you be the judge.

There are many reasons why kids aren’t performing well here in California, whether it's the large immigrant population, distractions like TV, video games, surfing, skateboarding, friends, computer surfing (YouTube, MySpace, Facebook, chat etc.) cell phones/text messaging, or even sports. If parents want their child to succeed, they need to do their job and not expect teachers to undo years of poor parenting.

To No Fan wrote on Sep 10, 2008 10:13 AM:While I can't say it is true for all charter school kids, I can tell you mine are working by 7:30 every morning, score tops in all the standardized tests, and aren't going to have a problem passing the CAHSEE on the first try. They are socially normal, involved in all sorts of extra-curricular activity, and have parents (I'm one of them) that knows exactly what they are learning, what they still need to learn, and what they are struggling with. And most parents and students I know at our charter school are just like this.

We left the regular schools because it became apparent that we were going to have to do much of the teaching anyway, unless we were lucky enough to get one of the better teachers, so we might as well just do it ourselves anyway. And our charter school has helped us by providing classes, curriculum, teachers, consultants, field trips, and all the other things that make a regular school what it is.

Bottom line is the kids are actually learning far more than they would in a regular school, in less time, and without having to deal with all the politics and bureaucracy lunacy that is dumped in their laps at the regular schools. How they learn and how they network with the world is far more realistic and will be far more useful than how students are taught in a regular school.

Now of course all charter schools are not the same, just as regular public schools are not all the same, but the charter schools are constantly changing to meet the educational needs of students. Too bad we can't say that about the regular schools. We hear a lot about "change" from our politicians. But does anyone really think that there will be any significant change in the way education takes place in the public schools?

I'm not willing to bet my kid's future on it, and neither are a bunch of other parents. We are making change happen now, not waiting for someone to change it for us.

JimRT wrote on Sep 10, 2008 10:15 AM:No child left behind (Public Law 107-110), what idiot(s) is/are responsible for this?
I cannot believe that with this law we effectively reduced our children to numbers, a percentage of the whole as determined by a select few. With “No child left behind”, we create children that are adept at taking tests but can they think? Will they be able to deduce, rationalize, interpret or ask the right questions? When they ask the questions, will they be able to apply the answers? Will they learn from their mistakes? School may teach my daughter how to take tests, but my wife and I will teach her to think for herself and not be part of the whole as decreed by people that cannot even define a box.

To Gringo wrote on Sep 10, 2008 10:34 AM:It's because it's not the illegal immigrants making excuses. If your kids can't learn because there are illegals in the classroom that is probably more your fault as a parent than the fault of the kids of illegals. Why don't you stop the blaming and help your kid with his homework and take away his xbox priviledges when he does poorly.

To A Closer Look wrote on Sep 10, 2008 10:36 AM:You say "There are now five 16 year old kids walking the streets of North County with no high school diploma, no hope of college, no job, and no future!"

So, it's the schools fault these kids are walking the streets at 16? Isn't it the parents responsibility to make sure they are in school somewhere, trying to pass that test on the next try, so they can graduate and get a diploma? You can blame a school for a lot of things, but I don't think this is one of them.

For those that want to know about this school, don't listen to "A Closer Look", or even me. Check out the API scores for yourself, or give them a call to see how the 10th graders did last year on the CAHSEE. I think you'll find they did little better than "A Closer Look" wants you to believe (I thought I heard 100% pass, but I could be wrong).

To Paco wrote on Sep 10, 2008 11:17 AM:It is a big mistake to leave the important responsibility of educating our children to the government. Yet we as a society continue to shirk our responsiblity and hand over the responsibility of educating our children to the government. After all, many parents argue, you don't have to pay to put your kids in a public school. The NCLB Act does nothing to address this issue. The Act gives the federal government and federal government bureaucrats significant power over states in matters relating to the education of our children. This was never intended by the authors of the Constitution (read the 10th Amendment). Moreover the Act may cause the unintended consequences of lowered achievement goals for students and encouraging teachers to "teach the test." If that happens, we might as well say good-bye to any hope of developing critical thinking skills in the public schools. The cost of allowing the government to "teach" our children may be more than we bargained for.

whooo slow down wrote on Sep 10, 2008 11:32 AM:for those of us with small kids can probably understand what I am going to say. Schools these days are teaching 2nd graders multi. problems, 3rd graders division and on and on. These kids are being pushed very hard. What we were learning in Jr. High is now being taught at grade school level. Yes some ways that is good. But now sneak in problems that are printed just to really confuse a child. Geez, we had to google my daughters homework on night just to find out that fancy phrase of words, just meant simple algebra.....what is up with that. I would like to see these test as well. I am sure that it is simple math, just created to be difficult.

To To Paco wrote on Sep 10, 2008 11:38 AM:Agreed, but it's more than that. I's a big mistake to leave ANY important responsibility to the government. Education, healthcare, employment, retirement, etc.

If you do, you get what you deserve, which is mediocrity at best. And imagine that, it's just what has been slowly happening starting early in the last century.

Ray wrote on Sep 10, 2008 12:12 PM:Why are some of you saying how great it is that only 80% of tenth graders can pass a test which tests for sophomore level competency. If the schools are doing such a good job shouldn’t we expect a 95% or higher success rate?

No Fan of Charter Schools wrote on Sep 10, 2008 1:05 PM:'To No Fan' your situation sound more like the exception versus the rule. Glad to see your child's doing better than many who are in traditional school.

Look at the API scores for most charter and continuation schools, they're still below those of the traditional schools. In fact, the NCT posted the API scores at; http://www.nctimes.com/pdf/API090508.pdf

Looking at the report, it's pretty obvious that most charter and continuation schools perform lower than traditional schools (with the exception of a very small few who performed as good or better).

Re To a closer look wrote on Sep 10, 2008 1:28 PM:I did as you said and checked the API scores for Classical Academy High. Here is what I learned...

Their API scores dropped 33% in one year! They were the only high school in Escondido to post losses instead of gains in their overall score. Every subgroup failed to meet state standards. A high percentage of students scored below standards in English. The records do not lie...

Classic Parent wrote on Sep 10, 2008 1:44 PM:My kid is one and done with Classical Academy High. I will never believe anything they say again. I made a huge mistake for my child that I will regret forever!

Ditto wrote on Sep 10, 2008 2:30 PM:Ditto to Classic Parent! I thought I was all alone. Thanks for speaking up!

Paco wrote on Sep 10, 2008 2:45 PM:Once again, I reiterate, that parents have a responsibility for their children's education. This is where I have a problem with our elected officials. These politicians like to tell us that they know better. They refuse to pass legislation giving parents the ability to utilize vouchers so we can have a choice where our children are educated. I don't understand it. People are given the ability to choose to abort a baby or not, but we are not given the choice on where our children are educated.

To Crying Wolf wrote on Sep 10, 2008 2:50 PM:You nailed it! Because you chose to learn English and assimulate and I welcome you with open arms. That score is fantastic and you write very well. I think the frustration with most people here is that we are being unindated with Latinos who REFUSE to speak English or even try to learn.

SanMarcosMom wrote on Sep 10, 2008 3:42 PM:Some of the numbers of kids not passing are Special Ed students and Spanish-speaking kids who have not been in the country very long. Many Special Ed students will never pass the CAHSEE, even with accomodations ranging from more time given to take the test to having a support person read them the questions. There are actually kids like this trying to pass. My daughter passed both sections first try and stated that they were easy tests. However, the biggest problem with education is that not all students come to school willing to learn. Some just don't care and won't try whatever anyone says or does.

To Re To a Closer Look wrote on Sep 10, 2008 5:25 PM:2007 84 Students API 844
2008 132 Students API 811

Yes, it dropped, 33 points, NOT 33%.

And it's still OVER 800. Can't you people read? In fact, it and Escondido Charter are the only two high schools in Escondido that are over 800. As a comparison, there are zero in Vista, zero in San Marcos, and zero in Oceanside.

So you can say whatever you want but it looks to me like both Escondido Charter and Classical Academy Charter are doing just fine.

That explains it wrote on Sep 10, 2008 6:36 PM:To "No Wonder I Can Never"
Correct change? I would be happy with just getting the correct food!

Bell Curve Bob wrote on Sep 10, 2008 7:59 PM:Maybe they just aren't smart enough to pass the exit exam.

FTM wrote on Sep 10, 2008 8:20 PM:School is just like universal health care. It's just good enough for the patient to barly survive, and it's slow and cumbersom.

If you are wealthy you can pay extra and go to a better doctor. You will still be required to pay for everyone elses free medical, and you can use it if you want, (and put your life in danger), but since you are rich, you can afford to pay a better doctor and you will get better care.
Public school is the same way.
Where there is money, there is better educated kids - NOT because the public school there is any better, but because the PARENTS are RICH and can AFFORD to SUPLEMENT the education of thier kids. You take away the extra money from ANY high scoring school distric EVEN SAN DIGIETO, and you will get the SAME FAILING SCORES.

Most poor people just don't have the time or care to get involved in thier kids education. NOT ALL poor people, but MOST.

That's just the way it is.

The truth is that the very best scores for the poorest kids in the country come from CATHOLIC schools! They have HUGE poulations of poor and minority kids but but often outscore even wealthy private school districs.

I have no comment on why, I mearly make the point because it's true. It prooves that poor kids CAN be SMARTER than rich kids all day long!

I suspect some of the same methods are being used in Oceanside Schools because thier test scores keep going up even though incomes have not.