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TRANSPORTATION: High-speed rail proposed to relieve Lindbergh Field
By BRADLEY J. FIKES - Staff Writer | ∞
SAN DIEGO ---- Relief for Lindbergh Field's increasingly crowded airways may come from a high-speed railroad to Los Angeles, said members of a committee considering plans to modernize the international airport.
None of the plans can significantly add flight capacity to the airport, said staff reporting to the committee at a Thursday morning meeting. Lindbergh Field is the county's main airport, and the region's growing population is testing its limits.
That news from a staff report evidently stunned some members of the committee, whose members come from local government agencies, including the North County Transit District and the San Diego Regional Airport Authority, which operates the airport.
"How can we talk about spending billions of dollars on something that's not going to add capacity?" said Supervisor Ron Roberts, who represents the county of San Diego on the ad hoc committee.
Committee member Steve Peace said the redesign can be linked to diverting short flights from the airport with a high-speed rail line that goes to Los Angeles, perhaps linking to John Wayne Airport in Orange County and Los Angeles International Airport.
Reducing these short-haul flights to Los Angeles would free up capacity at Lindbergh, said Peace, who represents the city of San Diego.
In addition, the airport can be redesigned to reduce the ongoing ground congestion from vehicle traffic, Peace said.
"A high number of the operations at Lindbergh are small airplanes making runs to Los Angeles," Peace said. "If you relieve that commuter burden off of Lindbergh, you increase the capacity of the Lindbergh transportation operations."
When the alternatives for Lindbergh are completed, the committee plans to discuss them in community meetings to get the public's reaction and advice.
Money is the biggest hurdle to a high-speed rail alternative between San Diego and Los Angeles. The exact cost hasn't been determined, but it is expected to reach into the billions.
Although a $9.9 billion state bond measure is on the November ballot for a high-speed train route, it would run from Los Angeles and Sacramento.
The California Transportation Commission is considering extending that high-speed rail line south from Los Angeles to North County. Stations would be added at Riverside, Murrieta and Escondido.
Peace said a high-speed line could get people from San Diego to downtown Los Angeles or Los Angeles International Airport in two hours, which would be about the same time it would take to fly, counting time spent arriving, waiting and deplaning.
After the meeting, committee member Mike Bixler said he thought the high-speed rail line to Los Angeles made sense.
Laughing, Bixler likened Supervisor Roberts' role to that of "the skunk in the perfume shop," delivering an unpleasant message that was impossible to ignore.
"When it settled down, the (committee) kind of said, you're right, Ron," said Bixler, who represents the Port of San Diego. "Airports are expensive things to build. We owe it to the public to make the best use of the assets we already have."
Moving passengers off the San Diego-Los Angeles corridor onto rail would reduce air traffic at both ends, because there would be less need for flights between those locations.
However, using rail to shift San Diego County passengers to other nearby airports, such as Orange County, Long Beach or Los Angeles International, would be a lot harder. All of those airports face capacity issues of their own. The major exception is L.A./Ontario Airport in Ontario, which has capacity to spare.
Roberts said that given the constraints, there just may not be a lot more possible to do about Lindbergh Field.
"The sad conclusion may be that this airport, even with the greatest train network in the world, is in serious trouble," Roberts said.
Contact staff writer Bradley J. Fikes at (760) 739-6641 or bfikes@nctimes.com.
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Yes on High Speed Rail wrote on Sep 18, 2008 12:13 PM:We need a high speed rail system to get us around the long distances we have here in SoCal - San Diego to LA and Las Vegas plus up to the Bay Area. It is cheaper and has less impact to people and commerce than trying to locate a site for a new airport here which we don't really need because we don't really want the additional growth a two runway airport will provide us.
There are a lot of people here now, we don't have the other infrastructure such as water to support many more. No new airport, give us quiet, comfortable air conditioned trains that "fly" at 150 mph or more between stops and then build interconnecting light rail, trolleys and trams to get people to their final destination.
Also, let's get some $ to LA so the Green Line actually goes to the airport. SFO finally has a BART station, LAX shouldn't have to wait 30+ years for a Green Line station.
No comments about "we can't afford it" "no new taxes" or "government waste" please. A month's worth of Iraq War gets us a transportation system. We can't afford to NOT do it.
craig wrote on Sep 18, 2008 1:22 PM:Actually not a bad idea. Even if you don't have to go through LA to make your connection you get lower fares out of LAX vs. SAN.
JJ wrote on Sep 18, 2008 1:40 PM:Great! Metrolink can't get the concept that two trains on the same track at the same time won't work at 45 mph., but this will work at 200 mph? The Airline lobbyists will never let this happen anyway.
solutions wrote on Sep 18, 2008 1:47 PM:An immediate solution is to move the short hops to Carlsbad. The long term solution is move the Marines from Miramar to Pendleton.
Richard wrote on Sep 18, 2008 2:52 PM:MiraMar is the obvious solution. Hopefully, this base will get realigned during the coming recession. High Speed rail isnt a solution until the city of Del Mar gives up its opposition to improving the rail corridor.
New taxes wrote on Sep 18, 2008 3:03 PM:If you don't have new taxes, where will the money come from. Riders won't pay enough. Do some internet resurch. The tax payer will pay seventy cents of every ticket dollar. Start with the CATO institute. Then look up reports on the San Diego county coaster. ON the service this may look good. Dig deeper.
Yeah JJ wrote on Sep 18, 2008 3:48 PM:that's it. While we're at it, let's close all streets, hwys and fwys since there are some drivers who can't get the concept that speeding, driving while impaired, etc. won't work at any speed.
Forget Miramar wrote on Sep 18, 2008 3:54 PM:The runway points right at La Jolla. Fighters can make the right turn to go over Torrey Pines, but heavies can't. San Diego had it's chance at Miramar (for free!) in the 50's, but it was too far away then.
And how long would it take this train to get me to SF? Five, six hours? It's a one hour jaunt via Southwest right now. People have been whining about the airport being too crowed forever. Funny, but I never have problems parking, getting through security, and getting on my flights.
Miramar this wrote on Sep 18, 2008 3:59 PM:Oh, and don't forget about the decades of ordinance left over from two world war's worth of training. Not the dummy bombs they used to drop in Mira Mesa, but the live stuff east of the runway.
But I like the non-stop train idea from Riverside to Vegas. Maybe have special carcarriers on the train. Bam! you're in Lost Wages with your own sled.
Farebox Ratio wrote on Sep 18, 2008 5:13 PM:New taxes wrote: "The tax payer will pay seventy cents of every ticket dollar."
That doesn't happen with any high speed rail system in the world. Even Amtrak's Acela Express in the northeast corridor makes an operating profit. Why would high speed rail on this coast be any different?
Travel Time wrote on Sep 18, 2008 5:16 PM:With an average speed of 150 mph you'd get to SF in 4 hours, not 5 or 6. Yeah, not as fast as a plane but with the cost of only going higher despite the current respite your tradeoff will be cost, not time.
Del Mar's track will be in need of some sort of shoring up or re-routing at some point in the next 2 decades or so; the cliff is basically crumbling away every day. Worse is the situation in Santa Ana with the train going within 10 feet of the backyards of people's houses. I can imagine a huge buyout of those to clear the right of way (a good use of eminent domain).
I can't imagine that Mira Mar MCAS will ever be turned over to civilian flight; El Toro MCAS wasn't although admittedly that site had a bunch of problems including no fueling infrastructure and non-level runways.
Naysayers should go to France and ride the TGV or Japan and ride the Shinkansen; both experiences are top notch, high tech and very much worth it. Believe it or not other countries do some things better than we do. I know, that's blasphemy.
Gil wrote on Sep 18, 2008 5:24 PM:$200 Billion was just given to Freddie and Fannie......why not some to the American Citizen?
Dream On wrote on Sep 18, 2008 11:50 PM:Pipe Dreams to all of you. There is no way we can continue to support the Iraq war and pay for infrastructure - so no, you can't have your high speed train. You also can't have new bridges to replace those falling down, new roads, new water or sewer lines to replace those that are very old. Wake up, there is no more money. We have spent all that we had, all we could borrow and now all that we could print.
Mad as Hell wrote on Sep 19, 2008 6:27 AM:There's a much simpler and cheaper way to resolve some of the capacity problems at SAN that is caused by the SAN-LAX flights...
Instead of American Eagle and United Express having 2 or 3 flights per hour on those little 30 seat turboprops, each airline can have one flight per hour on a 70 seat jet (Embraer 170 or CRJ-700) or 90 seat jet (Embraer 190 or CRJ-900).
It won't be as convenient as having a plane leaving every 20-30 minutes, but having fewer flights on bigger planes would go a long way to improve the airport capacity problems. Plus, these newer mini-jets are quieter, more fuel-efficient, and much safer than the little turbo-props.
To JJ wrote on Sep 19, 2008 8:08 AM:Criticizing Metrolink is not very productive and this accident really was not at the fault of Metrolink, but so far points to the engineer. If you want to fault Metrolink, then you should fault all of the automakers for not building collision prevention systems into cars and trucks. Ultimately, operator error is what causes most, if not all, accidents.
The high-speed rail system will definitely support California's long-term growth; however, regional mass transit needs to significantly improve the local flow of people. NCTD's Sprinter was a great idea, but for the number of stops, it would have been better to have a two channel system throughout and above or below grade crossings so that it could operate at faster speeds.
All Broke wrote on Sep 19, 2008 8:30 AM:Have the promoters of the plan noticed that: CALIFORNIA IS BROKE! I assume that the promoters will try to pass a bond. Bonds are taxes with interest that double the cost of a project. America is BROKE! California is BROKE! And soon American citizens will be BROKE. Just look at what the pols and wall street have done to us with the CFR planned sub-prime bank failures.
Frequent Flier wrote on Sep 19, 2008 8:39 AM:A regional (all of So Cal) solution is needed for airports. Our individual counties (and their airports) need to stop competing with one another and work together to maximize the usage and benefits of the airports that already exist. Maybe LAX should become the region's dedicated internationl and transcontinental airport, with the other airports supporting shorter flights. A train that goes all the way to LAX (vs just stopping at Union station) from SD would be great. If that means that SD taxpayers have to chip in to do something like extend the green line in LA to LAX, let's do it.
LAX will always supercede San Diego for international flights (both in frequency and lower cost);let's accept that and make it easier for passengers from SD to get there.
Well.... wrote on Sep 19, 2008 9:21 AM:If American or United thought it was financially advantages to fly more out of Carlsbad, they'd do it.
They don't. American doesn't even fly there anymore.
Rail is fine, but every little city along the way wants a stop, thus defeating the "high speed" purpose. Ala the Sprinter.
p.s. What are the chances of Arnold signing off on a train right now? Nope, a bullet train to Vegas, financed by the casinos, is much more feasible. ...
CHEEP MONEY wrote on Sep 19, 2008 11:19 AM:Question? Any of you believe we may soon be comming to a time of high inflation. I am seeing higher costs for goods to run my business, may be due to transportation, this becomes a multiplier. If a project was built with todays dollars and paid off with inflated dollars, could we get the train for ten cents on the dollar. Bond holder would take a bath. Just think of all the consummer debt,or national debt paid off with cheep money. It's happened before. Check 1960's to 2000.
Laughable wrote on Sep 19, 2008 10:30 PM:Problem #1 - The San Diego to LA leg is set to open in 2040, that is assuming they get the 50 billion in funding they need for this thing, never mind the ballot measure only asks for 10 billion (the rest will come from private investment... RIGHT! Laughable) Nevewr mond the cost overruns this thing will have. The flights to LAX are not the problem, San Diego's inability to plan is. Besides, the train isn't going to LAX so how does that compete with a plane anyway when people need to get to LAX? They only run two flights an hour now anyway and there is only a peak at Lindbergh from 11:00 am to 1:00 pm. So how is 4 flights a day going to help the Lindbergh problem? Oh and about old practice ordinance on Miramar... Frankfurt just replaced a runway that had been in use for 30 years and they found live bombs that never exploded when they took up the old runway. Didn't stop them from bulding the new runway either. Build the high speed rail if you can, but don't get your hopes up on it not costing the taxpayers some major bank. Don't count on it solving any airport problems either. By 2040, Lindbergh will have long past the stage of looking like La Guardia.
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