Are You Serious wrote on Sep 18, 2008 5:04 PM:"But others suggested there is something more insidious at work. They pointed to psychological stress that lingers long after Marines return from combat, the kind of stress that creates adrenaline junkies."

This is a joke right? Take a bunch of kids who have never had a dime and put them in communal, rent free housing... Give them an expendable income and lets see what they buy. This has nothing to do with 'combat stress' and everything to do with a bunch of 'kids' running free in the candy shop. More money and less off base supervision than these kids have ever had before in their lives is the same formula that makes downtown O'side a fight waiting to happen on weekend nights. Seriously folks, you wanna stop motorcycle deaths...Marine or civilian stop selling the d*^( things.

Skeptical wrote on Sep 18, 2008 5:30 PM:I'm skeptical about the "PTSD" hypothesis. I'm NOT saying that there isn't such a thing or that marines don't suffer from it. I just doubt that EVERY (or even most) ACCIDENT is caused by some stress related disorder.

The statistics are questionable. What is the national accident rate for persons of the same age and sex of the marines who crashed riding the same general type of motorcycle? Not just the overall civilian average as given above which includes 65 year old hippies on a Vespa as well as 16 year old joy riders on dirt bikes.

Doubtless returning marines have psychological issues which must be dealt with but the claim that the issues cause accidents seems a little too fantastic to believe. There needs to be better evidence before I will believe that assertion.

Also, what was the rate of accident before and after the Iraq War? Did it change?

To are you serious wrote on Sep 18, 2008 5:54 PM:How dare you call these men who fight for our freedom kids. Also, you should see how much an E-1 makes...just above min wage. How do you know that they never had a dime. Only people on welfare go in the military...granted more from the lower class enter the service but get real. Sounds like you have been beaten up one to many Marines.

paul wrote on Sep 18, 2008 5:59 PM:You wouldn't put a marine in battle without training so why not do the same with motorcycles?

Mexicat wrote on Sep 18, 2008 6:10 PM:It's not just Marines, it's also Sailors, Soldiers, and Airmen. Even before the war I would hear reports about these accidents. I think it's due to maturerity.

to to are u serious wrote on Sep 18, 2008 6:33 PM:they are kids...most of the sportbike riders i've encountered in my enforcement role as a police officer are 19-25 years old...still kids in my eyes too. Yes they have sacrificed for their country already...i understand that, i was in iraq fighting during that period of my life too. you come back home with a whole lot of tax free money in the bank and want something nice... hopefully the USMC can do something before any more of these marines get hurt

rsxguy wrote on Sep 18, 2008 9:59 PM:its a mix military life is alot about the adrenaline(shooting large weapons, jumping out of planes, fastroping down blackhawks,not to mention the huge amount of testosterone filled hoorahing they go through through basic that gives you the feel that your invincible. combine that with the money the free housing and money they get you get alot of people buying flashy things they really have no business buying(cars, boats, bikes)to the point where its gotten so bad there are now seminars for soldiers to attend to teach them to make better financial decisions(note the pay day loan scandels of oceanside) combine that with the fact that these are kids they might be soldiers but there are soldiers in africa that are 11 years old and when i was 19 i was dumb as a post when it came to financial responsibility

He Said wrote on Sep 19, 2008 7:20 AM:I remember a few years ago when I was researching the purchase of a motorcycle. Several of the dealers told me that in most cases a younger potential rider's first question is...
"Which one is the fastest?"

Jim in Oceanside wrote on Sep 19, 2008 7:28 AM:Hey, rsxguy! When I was 19, I was stationed in the Philippines and was dumb as a rock! I was living in the barracks, eating in the chow hall, work clothes had been issued to me. After spending a few bucks on civies to wear off base, the rest of my income was spent on F U N! I've been riding since I was 17, will turn 62 next November and look back with surprise that I survived until age 30!!! Alcohol, riding and wild wild women! I transfered to the Fleet Reserve in 1986 and retired from the Navy in 1995 with my 30 years of service. I average over 30K miles a year on my bike. Have owned so many bikes, I've lost count, but now ride a Yamaha Venture Royale First Edition (a 1990). I've been in three serious accidents, the first a car in front of me slammed on his brakes when he saw water on the street, had to brake hard and suddenly the rear of bike was leading the front. The second, a 8 inch diameter 20ft long eucalyptus tree limb fell in front of me on the freeway, I had to do an Evil Kneivel over it and ended up rolling down the number 1 lane at 55 mph. The third, an idiot in a van made an illegal left turn in front of me, I had a clear lane until then, when he claims he saw me, he slammed on his brakes ensuring I would t-bone him. My front tire made a dent and my head (with helmet on) made a bigger dent in the van when I flew over the handlebars headfirst into the Van. BTW, it was a Government Van, Driven by a Government Employee on a Naval Base. Claims and legal action are still pending. The Govt Employee was cited by the police, I wasn't, I was riding under the speed limit and had the right of way. I'm still healing from that last one, but will be riding as soon as my scoot is fixed.

That said, I am truly amazed that the death rate isn't higher for the Young Marines. I ride from Oceanside to North Island daily and cruise at 70-75MPH, these guys on their sports bikes must be hitting 100MPH when they fly past me. On the way home, they practice up on their "extreme riding" skills. Pulling wheelies at 80 MPH, white lining at 70-100 MPH. Then here I come putting along and the cage drivers are pissed at anyone on a bike. It's not just the young Marines, it's the Young Sailors and the Young Civilians. Like us at that age, they think they will live forever and are indestructable! But the Marines are taught they are bullet proof starting from day one of recruit training. Great for attacking the enemy with something you can shoot back at them or blow them up, not so good for riding a motorcycle.
Jim
CPO USN-Retired
Vietnam Veteran

Patrick wrote on Sep 19, 2008 7:30 AM:OK, here is the problem and I have a right to say this because 1. I am a Veteran and 2. I ride a motorcycle. It is not just Marines being killed on motorcycles it is civilians also. It is a combination of a young age plus the style of the motorcycle and lack of training. If you are in the military, motorcycle safety training is mandatory, but if the guys just keep the bike off base or at a friends house how do you enforce that rule? Safety training should be mandatory for anyone wanting to ride a motorcycle. I have been through the class twice; once while active duty and then again several years ago when I began riding again. You are taught skills in a classroom and a controlled environment, these skills will be used every time you ride. Last summer I saw 5 motorcycle crashes in one week, the common thread to these accidents were that all were young sport bike riders, thankfully none appeared to be serious injuries or deaths.

Bill wrote on Sep 19, 2008 7:35 AM:Don't let georgie know about this. He may see them as WMD and bomb the factories!!

neighbor of ninja rider wrote on Sep 19, 2008 7:45 AM:I agree with "are you serious". See I live across the street from a young Marine that is renting a home in our neighborood and has one of those death machines and takes off on it on a residential cul-de-sac going pretty dang fast. He is the Father of 2 small kids under the age of 4 and to me has the need for speed. We all see how screwed up his priorities are. His wife drives a 20 yr old beat up wagon and he has the bike, big truck, big screen tv and beer bashes with his buddies on the weekends. Meantime, they choose not to have the a/c on those scalding days and have also have turned off the lawn sprinklers that have turned the once pride of ownership home into a ghetto looking home. Thanks so much, and you get the stipends for moving to a higher income area and those of us that earned our way in here are left disgusted. So much for being responsible.

Sportbike Rider wrote on Sep 19, 2008 8:04 AM:Knowing my limits, respecting others on the road, proper training, and being completely aware of whats going on around me are all factors in why I am alive today. I think it is a combination of what is mentioned in the article and what I have just stated above. It's unfortunate that these young men often make a fatal mistake before really learning to respect the machine they are riding.

Disappointed wrote on Sep 19, 2008 8:30 AM:Now let me get this straight, suddenly, after years of apparent success, the Marine Corps is failing to find and recruit mature men and women into their ranks. Then, the Marine Corps fails to instill any maturity throughout the training process, basic training, advanced training, etc., and the new marine remains immature. Then, after one or more tours in Iraq or Afghanistan, the commanders have continued to fail at instilling any maturity into their subordinates. Then, these immature marines come home to kill themselves on a sport bike. What the Marine Corps would further have us believe is combat stress has nothing whatsoever to do with it. Has anyone with even moderate intellect vetted what these commanders are saying before they say it? How ignorant do they think we are? These commanders have failed their marines, they are failing to address the state of their mental health, and they are failing the American people who expect better of them. I suspect while they would have little tolerance for anyone who failed a mission they had assigned, these pseudo- leaders will absolve themselves of any duplicity. What has become of my beloved Corps?

John wrote on Sep 19, 2008 8:43 AM:As a current-military (part time Guard) with 12 years in, 27 years of riding and a stint as the Motorcycle Safety Officer for my unit, I would say the article misrepresents some things and is spot on for others.

First, the most recent stats indicated the largest increase in fatalities are OLDER riders on CRUISERS. I had a co-worker in his 50's put his GoldWing down when the driver in front of him over-breaked in morning traffic. Yes, there are more young riders dying, but it's because there's more miles being ridden. With gas hitting almost $5, less people drive, and hence, less people are dying in cars. 5 Billion less miles driven by cars is going to skew stats.

Secondly, THANK GOD! they are seeing beyond all the safety crap they keep making us wear. Bright colored vests, with giant 50k candlewatt strobes and trumpets blazing aren't going to reduce fatalities. "I didn't see him" is bull. How many motorcycle cops do you see get cut off? Right, none. And, they're wearing all dark colors, nothing reflective and they're TRYING to not be seen. In my opinion, motorcycle riders should ride slightly faster than traffic because cars forget AND they don't take bikes as a threat. Cut off a guy on a flashy GSXR crotchrocket? Sure, it's just some wreckless punk. Now put a CHP cruiser unit and all of a sudden, "Ohhh, I'll just slow, let the bike pass and use my signal to get behind him." Side Note: Old idiots on Harleys do 100-120mph too...I've seen it numerous times. It's not just young guys on sportbikes. I watched a San Diego local PD on a cruiser lane split semi's at 130mph on the 5 South and put his full dress, slow, old cruiser into spots I wouldn't even dream of putting a 160hp, 400lb high performance sportbike (which would get out of a jam much quicker) with my two decades of riding experience.

So where does that leave us? Airmen and Soldiers have the same money, barracks, etc situation, so why mostly marines? I'd say the author is partly onto something with the adrenaline. I've partied with these guys, and so I know them. They are looking for it. Also, it's the duty location. Most of my Air Force assignments are locations that you can only ride 6 months of the year. Most deaths are in San Diego, and so with year around riding, and end less choices of curvy roads to ride, is this surprising? I did maybe 6-9k miles a year, including commuting when stationed at Shreiver AFB, CO. I do 24,000 miles a year with NONE of it commuting here in San Diego. Where do you think I've had most of my run ins?

Regards,
John

extremely well said wrote on Sep 19, 2008 8:44 AM:Jim in Oceanside. Who didn't think like that when they were younger? I am not quite 40 and already have realised my mistakes and how I could have/should have listened to my mom more! All riders should take the rider course at Palomar College. It's really good, even for a refresher. Be careful out there, ride safe, God Bless.

Bill wrote on Sep 19, 2008 9:30 AM:I too am sad at these needless deaths, but most of you are missing the point. Read above, what was written by “Disappointed”, I read it and could not agree more. The Marine Corps needs to pull its head out of the sand and address combat stress and the problems associated therein, rather than shift blame to these individuals. Marines – seek help, slow down, relax, the nation is a better place with you alive in it!

mysay wrote on Sep 19, 2008 9:33 AM:Motorvehicle accidents have been going on for decades with the military. They're young, NEW TERRAIN and the thrill of speed is the problem. Our roads here in San Diego have become incredibly crowded. Also, get rid of the flu shots, they're crippling.

Oceansider wrote on Sep 19, 2008 9:38 AM:Fact is the less experience you have on a bike the more likely you are to crash.

Me wrote on Sep 19, 2008 10:21 AM:Rider said -- "To make them aware of the laws of the road is kind of stupid," ---Dumbest quote I've ever heard.

Anyone think that the increase in accidents is due to the increase in riders of motorcycles because of high gas prices? Increase in riders is going to lead to a higher number of deaths so this is probably a non-story.

And as far as calling Marines kids -- How about using the term young men?

dothemath wrote on Sep 19, 2008 2:01 PM:19-15 year-old Marine; plus OIF/OEF tours x 1,2,3,4,5,6,or more; plus undiagnosed/untreated psychiatric trauma (ptsd); plus undiagnosed/untreated TBI or MTBI; plus undiagnosed/untreated clinical depression; plus undiagnosed/untreated self medication (substance abuse); plus chronic undiagnosed/untreated pain; plus undiagnosed/untreated chronic insomnia; plus collapse of social support; plus finacial stress; plus nonstop garrison BS equals LIFE CATASTROPHY. It is the rsulting catastropy that is costing precious lives of these men. Oh, one other thought on the clown who thinks it is ok to call young combat veterans kids. You may leave garrison for a combat tour as a "kid," but you come home a "man;" or in the opposite gender's case, a "woman." Referring to Marine combat vets as kids is both inaccurate and insulting to say the least. Thanks to the editors for allowing their staff to report this issues. Stay with it. Marine Corps community: Deal with it. Own it. Address it without prejudice. Take care of the Marines. We'll all sleep much better and a few lives might just be salvaged in the process. Just my opinion for whatever it's worth.

cj wrote on Sep 19, 2008 3:08 PM:I see this every morning and afternoon living at the back gate. Most of these guys, LOVE riding on the right side of the road, where they should not be!!! Because they do not want to sit in the traffic like everyone else. We probably average 1 accident a week, when someone pulls out of the driveway and they are riding on the right side, I know that them riding there is legal maybe we should change that law.

Michael wrote on Sep 19, 2008 3:59 PM:Legal? No. Driving on the shoulder of the roadway is ILLEGAL! Motor vehicles are not allowed - in case anyone noticed - MOTORcycles are MOTOR vehicles. That endangers everyone else, inclusive of bicycles. Bicycle lanes are ILLEGAL to drive in as well, motorcycle or not.