All right wrote on Oct 10, 2008 10:40 PM:What's REALLY ticking the union off here? The fact that only 2-3 members of the council attended a meeting (WITH the Fire Chief present--way to keep that "secret" meeting on the down low, councilmen!Lol!), or just the idea that the city is looking for ways to save money and outsourcing the ambulance service could be one of them? Spin spin spin! Can you tell it's an election year?

Coast Watcher wrote on Oct 10, 2008 10:42 PM:Kern is right! this is nothing more than a stunt by a desperate union hack. They want to hold on to there sweet deal. TenBroeck if you were doing your job you would look into why the Fire union is all white with no women or African-Americans. Now that would be a real story.

No Rockey wrote on Oct 10, 2008 10:46 PM:"What we need to do as elected leaders is to see what the best way is to use our taxpayers' dollars," Chavez said-

Does he not understand what a trained professional firefighter is, or does! This makes about as much sense as having security guards replace trained Police Officers.

Get a grip on yourself Kern. wrote on Oct 10, 2008 11:10 PM:You are a disgrace to the City Council. Learn to behave with dignity while you conduct City business. Power has gotten to you head. It is the citizen right to talk to the Council; show some respect even if you disagree. What a looser!

The Troika is Back wrote on Oct 10, 2008 11:24 PM:I hope these union thugs are not representative of the city firefighters and employees as a whole. They have used Mayor Wood and Esther Sanchez to shake down the city taxpayers and it is still not enough. I am desparately trying to hold on and survive this bad economy and these guys through Wood and Sanchez want more. Take your lies out of city hall and go back and do the job you where hired to do.

taxpayer wrote on Oct 10, 2008 11:26 PM:Wow...finally some leadership combined with common sense. The unrealistic and outrageous demands of public safety unions are starting to have severe impacts on cities up and down California. The only way to put an end to this extortion is to look at privatization. There is no reason this will not work. Set high standards, monitor service levels closely and for the money saved you will be able to provide a far higher level of service to the citizen taxpayers who are now struggling to make ends meet. Unions have become greedy and out of touch with fiscal reality. I love firefighters and the service they provide, but I also understand economics and how much could be saved by letting private enterprise provide this critical service.

Feller Fibber wrote on Oct 11, 2008 12:27 AM:Well, here we go again with these three. Kern and Chavez ADMITTED meeting to discuss outsourcing, and even apparently had the Chief present. Sounds serious. I hate that Kern, Chavez and Feller are playing politics with our safety. I'm tired of their caring more for themselves than for us. I'm voting for Wood, Sanchez, and the person they are endorsing, Lowery.

Investigative reporting wrote on Oct 11, 2008 12:52 AM:Where has it gone? This story does not mention what a terrible time Oceanside had when we privatized our ambulance services. It was terrible! I believe it was Melba Bishop who came up with that. Now Rocky, Jack, Kern and this new guy Gibson want to outsource public safety. Makes you wonder what they are getting out of it personally. Those are the questions I'd like the paper to ask. Why mess with something that is not broken? It just doesn't make sense and worse our paper, who used to actually be about investigative reporting, doesn't seem to care.

Name-caller wrote on Oct 11, 2008 12:59 AM:When will Kern stop acting like a child everytime he hears something that he doesn't like? It is such a bad reflection on our city council. I am SO EMBARASSED BY HIM! I never knew how terrible he was. I guess he was just trying to deflect the fact that he met with a private ambulance company, apparently under very suspicious circumstances. I will not believe a word he says from now on. It may have worked when he did something bad when he was a child so that he wouldn't get in trouble, but it sure doesn't work now. HE DID IT. PERIOD. ENOUGH SAID. Now, I don't want Oceanside to oursource our emergency response. From all accounts, the system "works." Stop tinkering with things that work and start working on things that don't -- and please start with your attitude!

bogie wrote on Oct 11, 2008 7:12 AM:Why not just fire the City Council and let the Firefighters Union run the henhouse? It seems that is their intention anyway.

It is all about the Money wrote on Oct 11, 2008 8:24 AM:How much money did the City pay the Fire Union President Ray Melendrez last year? And what did it cost the City to get those non-union ambulance driver/EMT's out of the fire house?

Have we gone too far wrote on Oct 11, 2008 8:27 AM:What is wrong with this picture when we can not even discuss the option for privatizing any City services? Lets be open to all alternatives that can save the taxpayers money, and yes we should measure the safety factor as well. But to not even consider this option because the Union does not like it is just too much.

Granny wrote on Oct 11, 2008 8:31 AM:This is the sneaky, underhanded way that Kern, Feller and Chavez have been doing for the last 2 years- deals behind closed doors, meet developers and take tons of money from them, then vote to put ANY project in any neighborhood. If people don't think the threat of privatizing our fire department are real, think again! If you vote for Gibson, that's just one more nail in the coffin of public safety. These 4 men have no integrity when it comes to being public servants.Our poice and fire do an EXCELLENT job for our City. If you want open, honest government vote Mayor Jim Wood, Esther Sanchez and Charles Lowery.

paul wrote on Oct 11, 2008 8:36 AM:If the city has nothing to hide, let them hold these meetings out in the open.Simple.

Smoke Mirrors wrote on Oct 11, 2008 8:39 AM:This is simply a union stunt to scare citizens into believing that a private ambulance agency would provide a lower quality of service than firefighter paramedics. I haven't yet seen any studies that show that to be a legitimate concern. There are thousands of cities and counties around the country who are provided ambulance service through a private company. A number of cities in San Diego County are provided private services. Are the Oceanside firefighters suggesting that Oceanside Fire Department provides better services than those thousands of cities and counties across America, simply because they have firefighter paramedics performing the work? There is not necessarily a correlation between more paramedics and higher quality services, likely because the presence of many additional paramedics dilutes the number of ALS contacts that each paramedic receives. For instance, your typical "call" may involve a heart attack (MI) or maybe a fractured hip. It only really requires one paramedic and a competent EMT to treat these patients. In cities where every fire responder is a paramedic, you have one paramedic doing paramedic level work, and three to five other paramedics standing around, taking notes, carrying gear, or holding an IV bag. Hardly substantive experience. Private companies privde the services at a fraction of the cost, because they do not pay as much, and certainly do not have the same kind of gold plated retirements. I'm not saying that Oceanside should go private--just indicating that exploring other options are legitimate from both a logistical and financial standpoint, and can hardly be written off as dangerous.

Private ambulances wrote on Oct 11, 2008 9:00 AM:are nothing new, that is a way to save the tax payers money when for non-life threatening transports. Its no big deal. OFD will still respond to every call! Quit whining Firefighters. Do your job and quit playing politics. Tax payers pay you and you'll do what we tell you or you can go work at 7/11.

Firemen are suppose to be heros not politicians!

Ask wrote on Oct 11, 2008 9:02 AM:Oh my, what a private meeting they had.

Uh, the union dope was there as well. Union is a bunch of IDIOTS!!!

Best 4 Oceanside wrote on Oct 11, 2008 9:25 AM:Privatize the thing! The firefighters should not be involved in politics and should not be trying to tell us cutting 24 jobs from the city payroll is not in the best interest of Oceanside. ELIMINATE THE JOBS - TAKE THEM PRIVATE - DO WHAT I SBEST FOR OCEANSIDE!

had it with these guys wrote on Oct 11, 2008 9:30 AM:I support Oceanside Fire Dept wholeheartedly. But I have now had it with the union - these firetrucks driving around, not licensed I noticed, with political signs, the ads they're paying for are everywhere and I mean everywhere. Now this ridiculous charge of a secret meeting with two councilmembers, the Fire Chief and a union rep with some ambulance co. at City Hall and it's secret? I don't think so boys and you can't buy my vote so there. Can we keep our lovely fire dept. but get rid of the nasty union thugs. and what the heck kind of reporting is this anyway? Where are the facts?

He Said wrote on Oct 11, 2008 9:30 AM:The meeting was only to hear a vendor make a presentation. The union leaders presentation to the council was out of line. Anyone can present programs and ideas to any council member. I fail to see why these 100 or so firefighters think they are so important to a city with over 170,000 residents. It's the union leadership that's just trying to justify their management jobs. Feller wasn't even at the meeting, already discussed it with Melendrez and he still included him. The firemen really need to think about changing their leadership. The leadership is turning the tax payers off to them as well as candidates endorsed by them.

Well Said... wrote on Oct 11, 2008 9:43 AM:...tax payer and Smoke Mirrors. Why provide people with the truth when you can scare them with half truths and lies if it gets you what you want? The union is running around with its head on fire because members of the council along with member of the fire department are looking at options. Hello!!! Isn't that a part of their job? To look at options to provide services in the most efficient manner without sacrificing safety? Certainly union members can come up with plenty of literature/studies that show ambulance outsourcing is unsafe if that is their claim. Let's see the proof.

questioner wrote on Oct 11, 2008 9:48 AM:Isn't the meeting a Brown Act violation? That law was put into place to prevent back room dealings with government entities like the city council. Any such meetings with several city council members should be done in the open!

Fact Check wrote on Oct 11, 2008 9:52 AM:Want to learn about outsourcing? Go to Google and start there. Outsourcing is NOT a way to save money. It is a promise to save YOU some cash (in the form of taxes) at the expense of a lower quality service. That's the only way it can work. There is no actual money saved. It's like buying a Yugo instead of a Mercedes.

If you want a private company, call them directly and they will take care of you.

The cities in North County have agreements to help each other with similar responses, and that would go away with outsourcing. That's a savings right there, but who wants to see if it's worth it? Really, each one of us has to do our own homework on this and analyze it.

Another fact: Kern, Feller, Rocky, and Gibson have all stated they favor outsourcing. Gibson even wants to outsource the police. (I know, you will see all sorts of denial, but one hundred of us heard him say it.)

So, consider these facts before you vote for any of those people.

OCEANSIDIAN wrote on Oct 11, 2008 9:52 AM:What business does ANY council member have going out on their own and discussing a possible contract with a private company?? The function and power of a council member is when they act in conjuction with the ENTIRE council, not by themselves. I think there may be a violation of the Brown Act here. Council members are not supposed to meet on city business with no notice to the public nor to the REST OF the council. The Council did not authorize an ad hoc committee to do what Kern and Chavez have admitted to. Kern, Feller and Chavez do NOT understand their role as council members, obviously. They want to be lone rangers and act without the participation of the rest of the council. That's WRONG. ALL council members must be allowed to weigh in on any issue being discussed! That's what the Brown Act is all about.

Dude wrote on Oct 11, 2008 10:05 AM:When CFG win in a landslide we can finally do what is in the best interest of the taxpayers and send these unionized firewhiners down the road looking for the first real job they have ever had in their life. It will be celebration time. A victory for free enterprise and a blow to union style socialism!!!

Oceansides Finest wrote on Oct 11, 2008 10:20 AM:Vote For WOOD, SANCHEZ,& LOWERY.
I think having the kind of first responders that Oceanside has is Excellent. We as a city have made outstanding strides in reducing our crime rates and our responce times. Public safety is top on the list of reasons why people choose the place where they live and work. Oceanside citizens can boast with pride about our Police and Fire Departments. I support those who serve with my vote.
I'm voting for WOOD,SANCHEZ,&LOWERY.

OCEANSIDIAN wrote on Oct 11, 2008 10:22 AM:To "Dude": CFG?? Who is "G"? Oh, I bet "G" is Forrest Gump? Wasn't he the guy who said, " I gotta find Bubba!" Right. Now I know. Bubba is AKA "Dude." But FYI "Dude" Gump doesn't even live in Oceanside. I really do suspect that "Dude" woulnd't know a "socialist" from a hot rock.

Grand Example wrote on Oct 11, 2008 10:25 AM:In the middle of what may be the worst financial disaster in the history of the United States, largely caused by out of control government spending, a large amount of which has gone to union wages and pensions, a LEGAL meeting by two council members exploring ways to save money, is claimed to be something bad. If this isn't a grand example of why our city, state, and country are incapable of doing ANYTHING constructive to stabilize things, I don't know what is.

Mr. Melendrez appears to have lied about Feller being at this meeting. The meeting wasn't secret. A fire department representative was there. It didn't result in any deals, or in any decisions being made to do anything. It was exploratory in nature. Due diligence really. No money changed hands. No favors done. Yet the political opponents of these council members simply would rather misrepresent things in an attempt to scare people into voting against the only folks that appear to be left standing between the unions and taxpayer dollars.

I believe the actions of Mr. Melendrez clearly shows the true intent of not only the union, but council members on both sides of our "non-partisan" city council, and in the end will convince people that without members on the council like Chavez and Kern, the unions will have unprecedented levels of influence at City Hall, allowing them to "write their own ticket", regardless of the damage it may do to future budgets, or of how much it will cost taxpayers.

Amazing how some folks don't hesitate the preach about the effect greed has on Wall Street, yet turn a blind eye toward the cost of rampant greed in the union hall.

mike wrote on Oct 11, 2008 10:36 AM:to no rockey, comparing private paramedics to security guards is absolutely the most ludicrious thing i have heard. I am a private paramedic and I have the same amount of training in emergency medicine as a fire department paramedic. the standards are set by the state emergency medical services agency. Our scope of practice is the same as a fire department paramedic.

Thank you NCT wrote on Oct 11, 2008 10:45 AM:Without the NCT, this story would not be on the streets.
So, Rocky wants to be mayor.
And when did anyone elect Mr. Melendrez to any city position?
Mr. Kern's response seems to ans. the political activists in the fire department and their henchman Mr. Melendrez.
So, council members investigate a possible savings to the city. No one says thanks.
With 3 weeks to go to the election, the fire mouthpiece attacks, not from a concern about saving taxpayer dollars. Oh no, fire union reps don't care about that, they just worry about their jobs & future raises & increased benefits.
Mr. Melendrez didn't mention that did he?
Oceanside politics. Somewhere in the valley Melba Bishop is having a great laugh.

OCEANSIDIAN wrote on Oct 11, 2008 11:00 AM:Just listen to these union busting, hysterical tirades being posted on here! Now the members of the Oceanside Fire Department and their union are being blamed for problems on Wall Street! Look folks, if you want to RETAIN QUALITY public protection and safety, vote for Wood, Sanchez and Lowery!

NoPleasinEm wrote on Oct 11, 2008 11:22 AM:Boy, there's just no pleasing these guys! The union guys have been lecturing us for the last five years about how we're all inferior because we don't have a fire department just like L.A. County's, then somebody proposes to do what L.A County does and use private ambulances, and they start screaming. Do you suppose there might be a tiny little bit of self-interest in their positions?

Scare tactic wrote on Oct 11, 2008 11:26 AM:Anyone that has a brain knows that placing a union label on something doesn't make for a better product or service....but the label insures that it will cost more!

OCEANSIDIAN wrote on Oct 11, 2008 11:28 AM:To "Grand Example":: I suggest that you READ the Brown Act. Obviously, you have not. Council members should only act as council members IN CONJUCTION WITH THE ENTIRE COUNCIL. When they act as a council member, the public is entitled to notice if any of them meet TOGETHER to discuss ANY CITY BUSINESS and they can only do so with the WHOLE COUCIL involved. The WHOLE council may authorize a specific member or members to do a specific task and report back to the council. "Money changing hands" has NOTHING TO DO WITH these requirements! Those council members who went off on their own to meet with potential city contractors weren't "trying to save money," they were engaging in unethical and possibly illegal political manuevering.

Not Quite Oceansidian wrote on Oct 11, 2008 11:31 AM:What's being blamed for the bigger situation is a mentality that it's OK for the government, being pressed by special interests, to make really bad financial decisions. This mentality will ultimately result in this country, one state at a time, and one city at a time, going bankrupt. And to slam a few council members for even considering options is as stupid as not getting a second opinion from a doctor. Putting blind faith in a politician or union rep, who represents one employee group, and not citizens at large, is just as stupid.

No ones trying to "bust" a union. Firefighters have every right to union representation. But taxpayers have every right to make sure the cost of city services is kept under control. And that isn't going to happen if city council members aren't diligent in looking at options, or aren't steadfast in representing the city when negotiating with a union.

To Grand Example wrote on Oct 11, 2008 12:44 PM:Nice spin but the current economical problems of the country have nothing to do with Union wages. In fact when Unions were stronger during the industrial revolution, the Western world prospered more than ever before and saw the raising of the middle class. 30 years of free market (manipulation) have lead to greed, wealth concentration in the hands of corporations and the current economical disaster. Where is your concern for the taxpayer now that the Government has to bail out the free market (smells of Socialism to me)?

UNIONS ARE KILLING ME wrote on Oct 11, 2008 12:45 PM:Unions have taken 60% of my business, for crappy no quality work. They get TIN #'s for illegals so they can work. UNIONS are today's Mafia , breaking the law with power and Money. UNIONS can KMA

Make a decison wrote on Oct 11, 2008 12:54 PM:Chavez, Feller and Gibson say that safety and security are their first priority but they want to cut corners to save money. You get what you pay for. How about calling a virtual doctor in India when you are having an heart attack? That will save us taxpayers a lot of money and less traffic problems too.

Cleartome wrote on Oct 11, 2008 1:01 PM:Clear message: If the unions are against it, it's a more efficient way to operate. If the unions are for it, it will be the same old thing except it will cost more.

Gee Mike wrote on Oct 11, 2008 1:13 PM:People like you are exactly what the problem is. You are a private paramedic with no firefighting training. Our firefighters are cross-trained and able to respond to any emergency almost immeidiately. Where would the private service be housed? Probably in Vista or Temecula? Response times would go to 30 minutes or more. I strongly support keeping our firefighter/paramedics that we have now with our excellent response times and that's why I will vote for Lowery, Sanchez & WOOD.

Marie the Union Worker wrote on Oct 11, 2008 1:16 PM:Thank God for unions! We have outlawed child labor, gotten minimum wage enacted, gotten workplace safety rules enacted, gotten health care for our members, gotten illegal terminations outlawed...I'm proud to be a union woman (no, I'm not in police or fire) and always will be. Go with the candidates who want to keep improving our nation- Sanchez, Wood and LOWERY!

OCEANSIDIAN wrote on Oct 11, 2008 3:24 PM:"A few council members" are not being "slammed" for "considering options." Kern and Chavez and probably Feller too are being legitimately criticized for violating the spirit and the letter of the law. i.e., The Brown Act. That isn't "stupid" that is appropriate. Why didn't they put their idea on the council agenda for ALL of the council to discuss and for the PUBLIC to comment upon???? I will tell you why. They were afraid to float that boat in public for public scrutiny. That's wrong, that's unethical!! Instead they went behind the full council's back, did an end run and tried to deal directly with some private entity; discussing a matter that they had no business discussing outside the Council Chambers and with the entire Council and the publics' full knowledge and participation. Look folks, Kern, Feller and Chavez should not be on the Council when they conduct themselves this way. Let's put Chuck Lowery on the Council, replacing Feller, and let's re-elect Jim Wood and let's re-elect Esther Sanchez to forestall and prevent this kind of nonsense from continuing!!

Gee Mike Again wrote on Oct 11, 2008 6:00 PM:First reponse is by the two Firefighter/Paramendics on the Fire Engine. The ambulance is second response with two more Firefighter/Paramedics. It is the ambulance that transports to the hospital. Do we really need four Firefighter/Paramedics to respond to each call? And do we really need a high paid Firefighter/Paramendic to be the amulance drivers?

Marine 1 wrote on Oct 11, 2008 6:10 PM:I cannot believe you people! Every city employee is represented by a bargaining group. They aren't unions and never have been. I know what unions are about and these guys are not unions. First they voluntarily give money to a fund to back candidates. This is far more representative than are the sleezy developers that dole out thousnds to these pro-developers unions made up of Feller, Kern, Chavez and Gibson. The firefighters and police have to fight for themselves because this bunch wants to hire $10 and hour ambulance drivers to drive meat wagons to pick up the bodies of heart attack victims. Just look up the difference between EMT's and Paramedics. Better hope you get a Paramedic because EMT's cannot do anything but transport.
Don't be foolish and believe the lies.
Just think about it. The last bunch that believed Rocky (the School Boars) found out he left them holding the bog (of bills). The last bunch that believed Feller and Kern are still waiting for thier promise of an RDO interchange. The Mayor tried to tell us that RDO Interchange would cost hundreds of Millions and cannot be built even with the money because of where it is. We believed them and here we are years later and not one dime has been approved for that interchange.
Wake up and vote for Wood and that new guy Lowery.

WRONG AGAIN wrote on Oct 11, 2008 6:14 PM:MELBA VISHOP NEVER TRIED TO PRIVITIZE THE FORE DEPARTMENT. WHEN SHE WAS ON THE COUNCIL THE FIREFIGHTERS HAD 32 GUYS A SHIFT AND SHE WAS THE ONE WHO MADE EVERYONE OF THEM CROSS TRAIN AND BE FIREFIGHTER/PARAMEDICS. I KNOW THIS FOR SURE

To Gee Mike wrote on Oct 11, 2008 6:32 PM:What firefighting training is required in responding to medical emergencies? Over 90% of all calls require zero firefighting skills or training, yet the vast majority of training dollars at fire departments goes to fire training. Doesn't make much sense, does it? Your claims about the private service being housed in another city are not based on any reasonable understanding of how city contracts with private ambulance agencies work. The private paramedic units would likely be stationed in the fire stations themselves, with the private EMTs/Paramedics housed with the firefighters. Or, the other alternative may be private ambulance stations within the city. No contract (other than perhaps a second-in, Basic Life Support backup contract) would allow the units to be housed outside of the city.

McCainiac wrote on Oct 11, 2008 6:43 PM:Illegals call the fire department for free ER health care and advise and then decline to be transported when they find out it is not life threatening.Privatize this service and hand them the bill for the services provided.Let personal insurance cover peoples health needs.The fire department services have become another form of socialized medicine.Stop this abuse of the system.

Ask wrote on Oct 11, 2008 7:25 PM:If every proposal or preproposal was discussed at a city meeting EVERYTIME, nothing would get accomplished.

Whats funny, they are keeping their eyes and ears open to others and they get slapped back into the box. What a shame.

Citizens are speaking their word, they want business as usual with no changes.

When it comes back to bite you, I know, you'll be just as upset then.

To Marine 1 wrote on Oct 11, 2008 8:56 PM:It's fairly obvious you have no idea what goes on in Oceanside! These guys aren't union?? Ha Ha Ha!! Feller and Kern are responsible for no work on the RDO Interchange?? Try Wood, Sanchez and Macken....they sold RDO Interchange down the tubes in exchange for votes from homeowner groups that opposed the Interchange. I appreciate what you do for a living because I'm retired military myself, but please educate yourself before blogging again.

Stop blaming Wood for fear mongering wrote on Oct 11, 2008 9:02 PM:I can easily see from the quality and understanding of the blogs that there is amazing knowledge of this issue and NO further need for anyone to ever discuss this issue again. It is common knowledge that those Cities (most of them) that have private ambulance service, or EMT's as ambulance drivers, have a disproportionate level of patient losses (especially seniors)on the way to the hospital.

Of secrets etc. wrote on Oct 11, 2008 9:11 PM:Mr. Melendrez's statement about the secret meeting (which it was) reminds me of Feller's quote in the paper, when he tried to explain why he didn't run for mayor. I knew it was because he would not have been able to beat Jim Wood. But he also said somthing about ... behind the scenes ... made it sound very mysterious, which is NOT good for someone who wants to be a public official. Those pesty secret meetings ... guess Feller couldn't remember which secret meeting they talked about that secret stuff ..."

HS wrote on Oct 11, 2008 9:51 PM:As a Firefighter in a North County department, I would like to speak out in an unbiased way. I have no affiliation with OFD.

My department uses private Paramedics and have done so for many years. Since we run 1 engine and 1 truck with Firefighter/Paramedics on both of them out of a single station, it is okay for us to use private medics. Secondly, our department chooses not to have to collect from patients.

Mike, what you fail to relay is that the private Paramedic will be replacing a Firefighter/Paramedic who responds to and participates in firefighting, rescue, training, etc. Our private Medics ONLY transport. They rarely train with us on a daily basis and we get the patient ready for them (ie. extrication).

We used AMR and the level of Medics was not that great then. As a result of that, we signed a contract with a different service who is performing much better. I do agree that the skill level of most Paramedics coming out of their certification classes are much better now.

There are 2 ways to have a transporting agency in a city.

First choice is you utilize the city Firefighter/Paramedics to transport. This also allows you to have the personnel available for extrication, fires, etc. They are also supervised by the fire department personnel. This is a better way to deal with training, discipline, etc. They often will take many additional classes to increase their knowledge. The downside is that the City is responsible for collecting the fees, however that means revenue.

The other way is private ambulance companies. The negative is that they are only Paramedics and rarely function in a firefighting role. This reduces manpower on daily emergencies. Contrary to what the public thinks, even a CPR call requires at least 5 - 6 people to make the call run efficiently which increases the chance of survival for the patient. The new CPR standards require much more personnel. Secondly, they are managed by their own supervisors and are often doing their own thing on a daily basis and not participating in training. They are not required to take additional classes to increase their knowledge. The upside is that they are responsible for collecting the fees which takes the city out of the equation, however the city only gets a percentage of the revenue.

I have been in the service for 29 years and this is what I see everyday. It is up to you to decide what is right for the city, but since I live in Oceanside, my vote is to keep the fire service as the transport agency.

Just my 2 cents to hopefuly educate some of you that just want to bash the fire guys without knowing how things work.

Thanks for reading my long post.

Escondeeter wrote on Oct 11, 2008 10:23 PM:HS

A long post, but a worthwhile one. You've made the case for having sworn personnel do the transport quite effectively... and (gasp) politely. You must be new around here.

HS wrote on Oct 11, 2008 11:15 PM:Escondeeter,

I moved to San Diego in 1976 and have lived in Encinitas, Oceanside, Vista, and Escondido.

I have worked out of the same fire station for all of those years. It has been a very rewarding career.

I hope everyone takes heed to our recent disasters here and clears their brush for a safe defensible space.

Agreed wrote on Oct 11, 2008 11:49 PM:I fully agree with the statements made by HS. Almost every new paramedic works for a private ambulance company when they start their careers. Some go back to school for a fire academy, some do not. I have worked for a private ambulance company that ran calls for cities in the South Bay and I currently work for a local North County agency. I am also an Oceanside resident not affiliated with the OFD.

Even civil post by the Escondeeter, which was a change of pace from comments made about his own city. We can disagree, but still be civil. It's nice to see.

Roger wrote on Oct 12, 2008 6:50 AM:When will you people realize that the fire and police unions are who really run this city. (Bishop) Sanchez and co give them the state's fattest compensation package, so they rent a private fire truck and drive it around town in partial uniform with a Sanchez banner to make it APPEAR the fire dept as a whole backs them. Unions always complain when it can be done better and cheaper

Escondeeter wrote on Oct 12, 2008 8:22 AM:HS

The "new around here" comment was in reference to these message boards. It was a half-formed attempt at ironic humor, not an indictment of your experience. Civility isn't seen a lot around these parts. Thanks for 'weighing in'.

Old man wrote on Oct 12, 2008 9:07 AM:Whew! Am I glad that I moved from Oceanside and all the anger!! Moved to Riverside County where AMR is the primary Medical Transport and they do an excellent job!

Fire Fighters should be on call to fight fire and be first responders, they don't need to be transporters.

Sounds like a union feels they might loose a couple of members and their revenue!!

What a group of whiners!

Most Cities have private amulance service wrote on Oct 12, 2008 11:56 AM:Believe it or not most Cities have private ambulance service. Those City's that have their own ambulance service have them staffed by Paramedics and EMT's. I have not seen any data or evidence that support this being less safe, it is likely less expensive as well. I an beginning to see this as a Union issue, why does the Fire Union not want to talk about options to staffing the ambulances?

Ricidulous wrote on Oct 12, 2008 1:20 PM:Most cities the size of Oceanside do NOT have private ambulances. Whoever posted that is ridiculous! I love our police and firefighter/paramedics and wouldn't trade them for an underpaid and underskilled meat wagon driver for my life!

Daniel wrote on Oct 12, 2008 2:03 PM:This just solitified my vote for Jim Wood.

HS wrote on Oct 12, 2008 2:11 PM:Escondeeter

I try to post when I feel that people want to just lash out at police and fire. I have posted many other times but it seems that the NC Times sometimes only wants to see one spin on a topic.

Unfortunatly for me, it is always when I try to show both sides to a subject, my posts are not accepted.

It saddens me to see how many people are quick on the keyboard to discredit police and fire, but none of them will wear the badge and do the job. It seems that they just want someone to hate.

It is easy for them sit back in the comfort of their home and make their comments, but just remember to be well imformed before a comment is made that makes an inuendo in a negative way.

Hard working FFPM wrote on Oct 12, 2008 3:23 PM:People are forgetting you get what you pay for. You want to bring in private companies with employees that are not happy with the wages they get and expect them to do the same job. I understand where they come from and think they are under-paid for what they do.
People also need to realize that the fire service prides themselves on being well trained and in good physical condition. I have alot of good friends in the private sector and the reason for them being there is they could not cut it in the fire service.
Last point. Their is a revolving door with private medics. Fire crews work together for a long period of time and know how each person operates. You bring in medics they have never met before and the calls get longer and slow down patient care. Plus, for our frequent flier patients, they like seeing the same faces and having us understand their needs. Employees that work for the CITY take pride in the CITY. Private medics use it as a stepping stone and don't share the same feelings.

Thanks for listening.

To HS wrote on Oct 12, 2008 5:56 PM:I don't think comparing Solana Beach Fire and Oceanside is fair.

To Ricidulous sic wrote on Oct 12, 2008 6:01 PM:The following cities in Southern California have populations within 8,000 of Oceanside's, and use private ambulance companies for EMS transport.

Chula Vista
Moreno Valley
Fontana

I could go on, but you get the idea that your post is completely false.

I stand by my statement wrote on Oct 12, 2008 6:14 PM:Most Cities have private ambulance service. The Fire truck paramedics are first response in most Cities, including Oceanside, the ambulance is use for hospital transport. If you have information different than this please reference same, but please don't spread more misinformation.

HS wrote on Oct 12, 2008 10:32 PM:To:

To HS,

Why is comparing Solana Beach and Oceanside not the same?

What is on the table is private ambulance services vs. department ambulance services.

It does not matter where the location is, the concept does not change. Do you feel that the richer cities should have a different service than others?

That idea makes no sense what so ever. Since you obviously did some detective work to find out where I work, maybe you can tell me where you work?

As far as I know, the cities with department medics are: Oceanside, Vista, Carlsbad, and San Marcos. All others use either SDMSE or AMR.

Union Grandstanding wrote on Oct 13, 2008 5:25 AM:More fire union grandstanding. Lets look at the facts...Fire based EMTs and Paramedics have the same training and certification as those employed by hospitals, county services and private companies. Most private and hospital based EMS systems are held to performance standards. Most munincipal servicis are not measured in a similar manner nor do they publically reports such standards.

The elephant in the room is the union's fear of losing jobs and the associated dues. The only difference in providers is the color of the uniform and the color of the vehicle in which they arrive.

The question is..... wrote on Oct 13, 2008 6:37 AM:Do the people of Oceanside Support the Fire Department which includes the Paramedics! Private is not good folks! So all you FireFighter Paramedics remember this in Oceanside! Because I am not hearing much support! The City Council wants to demonize you all to balance thier budget! I know lets have a new arts center and not paramedics! What the heck! If the City of Oceanside keeps trying to push the public service people around you may ave to go to another city! Fire Fighters and all! Let's see them put out fires without fire fighters! Pathetic City Council bullies!

With Rocky train of thought wrote on Oct 13, 2008 6:39 AM:We would replace the Marines with the Airfarce!

AMBU GUY wrote on Oct 13, 2008 8:04 AM:I THINK ITS GROSSLY UNFAIR AND IGNORANT TO CHARACTERIZE PRIVATE AMBULANCE PARAMEDICS AS INFERIOR TO FIRE DEPT. MEDICS. ACTUALLY, QUITE OFTEN THE LEVEL OF CARE PROVIDED EXCEEDS THAT GIVEN BY FIRE MEDICS, AMBULANCE MEDICS DO IT FOR THE MEDICAL ASPECT WHEREAS FIRE DEPT. MEDICS OFTEN ARE MEDICS FOR THE PAY DIFFERENTIAL PROVIDED FOR HAVING THE LICENSE. PRIVATIZATION PROVIDES AN AFFORDABLE ALTERNATIVE TO OVERPAID PUBLIC SAFETY POSITIONS.

HS wrote on Oct 13, 2008 9:18 AM:AMBU GUY,

I don't think the issue is the level of skill, it is just that when you replace a Firefighter/Paramedic with a Private Paramedic, you lose that manpower on fires, rescues, etc.

I do agree with you that a private medic should have better skills because all they do is transport.

My point is that I wouldn't want to cut Firefighter positions just to gain transport crews. Us them as a supplement.

Idea wrote on Oct 13, 2008 9:51 AM:Here's an idea.

Contract ambulance transport out. City gets percentage of profit.

Redeploy the 8 firefighter/paramedics currently assigned to the ambulances to engine/truck companies. Four personnel assigned to new engine (to be assigned to busier station). Remaining four firefighters assigned to current engine/trucks to provide four person staffing on those units.

No jobs lost. Increased fire protection capability in the city.

From Oside wrote on Oct 13, 2008 10:27 AM:For the most part, Fire Unions are not about advocating public anything. Their primary mission is to increase due paying membership - that's it folks! It's all about job security when it comes down to it. Removing or reducing EMS job functions from So Cal fire departments means lost jobs to them. No more justification for multi-million dollar stations, nor paramedic truck cos. MOST of the LARGEST cities in So Cal, and in the US in general, use privatized EMS.

Girls rule wrote on Oct 13, 2008 2:09 PM:What in the world?!?! The same three yahoos are at it again. I lived in Oceanside when the DEAD ZONE political issue reared it's ugly head, in 1990-1992. The fire dept fought against any attempt to station the paramedics on the ambulances for the emergency calls they got! They had to ride on the big fire twucks to the medical calls!! Has something changed? They about destroyed Melba Bishops political career over that "discussion" ~ so just be aware that the OFD will fight with all it has to keep their system intact. I will never forget how they scared the hell out of a lot of senior citizens who lived in what the OFD termed "the dead zone" ~ and my last visit to O'side showed me that the OFD has done really well for itself in relationship to firehouses/equipment and personnel since 1992. I personally wouldn't want any private paramedics responding to my emergency. Bring the OFD firefighter/paramedics on the fire truck or the paramedic ambulance, just be there in under 3 minutes ~ that's all I care about!Now, I challenge the OFD to do to these three yahoos what they did to Melba!! Fairs fair, Gentlemen!

Sarah wrote on Oct 13, 2008 3:49 PM:You may save the taxpayers money by using AMR, but the cost will be lives. Do you want trained paramedics, fairly compensated for their work to come to your house when you're having a heartattack or do you prefer minimum wage, overworked, minimally trained EMTs?

Sad day wrote on Oct 13, 2008 10:33 PM:It's a sad day when members of the community continuall bash firefighters and their union because they think it's all about the money. Let me turn it around for you. If you work in private industry do you think it's important to have a good salary, good benefits, good retirement and a good working condition. Of course you do. If your company was going to outsourse your job to say India for example, would you fight to keep it. Sure you would. If you were going to lose your job, would you appreciate your co workers standing up for you? I'm guessing yes. So I guess this is all about your tax money being spent to pay for fire and medical emergencies, Well, everytime you ask for a raise at work or better benefits who pays for that? Is it your company that picks up the tab? No, consumers and shareholders do. Do the unions give themselves pay raises? NO. Do your elected officials and city manager give them pay raises, YES. Inform yourselves or continue to complain about who is getting this or that. By the way I am not in any way affiliated with the firefighters. Just someone who pays taxes in this city and can function with what I'm given.

Osider 1996 wrote on Oct 14, 2008 12:13 AM:Hey dudes...anybody looked out their back door lately and noticed what was causing the "BBQ-in-my-back-yard" smell?...........Anybody think about the cause being a huge dangerous fire being only a few miles from your house???

I am so far from being associated with any political agenda and I have no connection to any candidates, but I do own a house here in Oceanside...I know I'm not alone in fearing for my house and it's precious contents (oh.....family...ya know....)

Kudo's to the OCeanside and Camp Pendleton Fire Fighters. You are the BOM!!!!!

Fwn, Oceanside Homeowner since 1996
Oceanside, CA 92054/92058

gurneyboy wrote on Oct 14, 2008 11:07 PM:Fire Departments will always say that they can do EMS better than the private sector. Granted the first FD medic unit was in Lakeside, however the private providers had been providing EMS in San Diego city and the Southbay since 1979. The current provider AMR has maintained this service for 20 plus years in the Southbay. SDFD converted most of their single role medic units to Rural Metro units. SDFD has a partnership with Rural Metro and it has worked well. SDMSE has revenue sharing with SDFD and have to absorb the loss if revenue falls below a certain percentage. How sweet is this? San Marcos Fire Department severed its ties with AMR and said that they can do it better, but turn around and ask AMR for a couple of loaner rigs as they did not have any of their own.

Cities used an Request For Proposal (RFP) for private provider to go after. The FD's know this and use it to their advantage. AMR and its previous company, Hartson Medical Services had to provide the training to FD's equipment purchases, etc. Rural Metro under their CSA 17 contract purchased 12 Public Access AED's,yet, the Local FD can take credit and no one is the wiser.

Fire based EMS are constrained by a budget and this limits them on the ability to increase personnel and equipment. Private providers have to follow the contract that is given to them.

Private medics leave for a number of reasons. When they leave for a fire medic position, they take their knowledge and experience with them. The private providers have train another new medic. Fire Department gets an experienced medic at the providers expense. FD's saves money by not having to send a FF/EMT to paramedic school, paying an overtimer to cover that shift,etc. The FD propaganda machine turn this inexperience level of the private medics as a excuse for having a fire based EMS. A new fire medic with only 20 shifts as an intern is just as inexperienced as a private medic with the same 20 shifts. The may have been the cause of the SD County removing a common medication from the treatment protocols. Medics from both sides have had difficulty differeniating between Pneumonia versus Congestive Heart Failure. We were all trained in EMT school that the FD's were to take care of the rescues and private providers were to handle patient care once FD had finished their job.

If pride is a factor for a FD medic to work for a certain city and its residents, then how many of them actually live in the very city they live in? IF the FD medic has to rely on a 401k plan, would they leave for another department that had better benefits and a pension plan? If pride is paramount in the fire service, there would have been no lawsuit with SDFD by its firefighter for having to go a a gay pride parade.

FD's allow their families to be at the stations for the holidays. TV crews always show this, but never show that hapless ambulance crew holding cover at a street corner eating a meal from AM/PM.

Someone also said that senior citizens have a higher mortality rate while being transported by a private provider than with a FD medic unit. Where is your data to support this? How many time has a FD medic unit pull into an emergency room with a patient in CPR status? If someone is going to die, it does not matter if it happens in a private medic unit or FD medic unit. It just may be that there are more private medic unit running call than the FD medics.

For OCFD to put one additional ALS ambulance in the last 17 years is wrong.
Chula Vista and CSA 17 Has increased their number of medic units. AMR and Rural Metro had no problems keeping pace with population growth. Their union should have been demmanding that the city add more medic units to meet the demmands for service.

During the last two major fires this county has seen, the private providers, big and small responded to your calls to 911. They helped with the evacuee collection centers, responding to remotes areas of the county to retrieve injured firefighters and residents. They did all this without fanfare or a thank you from the FD themselves or from the public.Did you know that theCalFire Firefighters who were burned at the Harris Ranch fire were treated by AMR medics? I really dont think that the firefighters were asking "Are you a fire department medic or just a private medic" If all the FD personnel are out on mutural aid responses, who do you think will show up at your door?

Sarah said that she rather have a fairly compensated medic taking care of her rather than have an overworked and underpaid private EMT at her side, I ask you this.. when you are at the emergency room, do you ask the triage nurse or the nurse who is treating you "Are you just a Diploma Nurse, or do you have a Bachelors or a Masters Degree in Nursing" Those nurses do the same job, they just get paid more due their education.

So when OCFD or any Fire Department ask for a raise, give it to them, they really do earn it.

to to recidulous sic wrote on Oct 15, 2008 2:00 AM:CHULA VISTA, MORENO VALLEY, FONTANA...? way to set such a high standard that oceanside should follow. we all know how safe and desireable those cities are to be in. i would think the oceanside resident has would like better than that. TRY AGAIN...

Gurneyboy wrote on Oct 17, 2008 11:19 AM:I would like to retract my statement and add a few.First,not really sure about Rural Metro purchasing the 12 AED's for the CSA 17 area. I was wrong about this. CSA 17 may have purchased these AED's through their operating funds... sorry about that. CSA 17 did buy monitors that are capable for 12 lead studies and that the training will be conducted by Rural Metro staff.

Bax wrote on Oct 27, 2008 11:07 AM:Sure is funny how those disparaging Chavez for being reitred military are the ones trumpeting about "puuting their lives on the line for you."

No has anything against the profession of firefight and policeman. Many of us do have something against an organization that exists solely to make its members pay dues and keep certain jobs open only to its members. Unions are evil, outdated, and a thing of the past. Cops and firefighters are good people. Marines are also good people, even retired ones like Rocky. Marines put their lives on the line for FAR LESS money than the cops and firefighters. I know my last statement was a no brainer yet it seems the unions have forgotten the facts when beating their breasts and wailign about riskign their lives yet still badmouthing Rocky for being a retired Marine.