Tyler wrote on Nov 1, 2008 11:16 PM:I saw a group of "Yes on 8" in Escondido using thier kids as political tools. Some of them had signs that said Prop 8 equalled free speech and freedom of religion.

OK, but the Constitution already guarantees both, and if anyone on the "Yes" side did his or her homework, the part where the court ruled that churches could not be compelled to perform same-sex marriages must have been missed.

Also, the ad saying that 96% of California school require the teaching of marriage is a distortion of the truth. Again, school districts draft what is taught, the state only mandates what the outcome is, not the means to reach it.

However, I am happy to see faith leaders in San Diego come together to show that God-- the Christian God-- accepts and loves everyone, regardless of sex, color, race, or sexual orientation.

The "Yes on 8" crowd needs to re-evaluate the teachings of Christ before they try to discriminate against a group of people in His name.

Teacher wrote on Nov 2, 2008 12:26 AM:We will enjoy indoctrinating your kids about the gay lifestyle, "Whether ya like it or not!"

Alf wrote on Nov 2, 2008 2:06 AM:Well, "Tyler" at 11:16PM,
just in case you hadn't noticed,
the "yes on 8" crowd picks and chooses whichever passage or passages from whichever Testament depending on what suits their purpose at the time.
Meanwhile the "no on 8" crowd remains consistant in their choices and arguments.
I argue two primary things -
1) Religion or religious beliefs are not and should not be the basis for civil law and/or Constitutional Amendments.
2) Since it is the state that issues marriage licenses and since the California Constitution prohibits discrimination based on sexual orientation, even as an Amendment prop 8 is un-Constitutional and must be overturned when challenged in court.
Do not discriminate,
Vote NO on Prop. 8.
Regards, Alf.

JSten wrote on Nov 2, 2008 5:06 AM:I thought there was only one god.

Now there is a Christian god?

Is there also a Jewish god? A Muslim god?

I am confused.

lady wrote on Nov 2, 2008 5:14 AM:VOTING YES on 8 LEAVE our schools ALONE!!! This is no place for "some of you" to teach,voice ,push your thoughts,feelings on KIDS!!!

INfidel wrote on Nov 2, 2008 5:43 AM:Tyler,

God does love everyone however he is also just and merciful that is why he says love the sinner hate the sin. He can not be divided amongst himself. Those that say he condones homosexual conduct do just that they put their opinions above his. Men were born men and women were born women. Put them together and in time they will cease to be. It's called nature!

Unless you have another way. I am all ears.

Brad wrote on Nov 2, 2008 7:21 AM:You actually expect people to do homework before they vote... or even think for a second?

How preposterous! lol

Pluto wrote on Nov 2, 2008 7:26 AM:Tyler's comment is right on. The "Yes on H8" crowd should consider that Jesus never said a word against homosexuality, and it's not one of the 128 "thou shalt nots" in Exodus 20-23 (why are they so obsessed with the first ten?) Jesus clearly spoke against divorce. Interesting how they pick and choose. They are so terribly misguided.

slanted wrote on Nov 2, 2008 7:34 AM:Last week the Californian ran a picture of a group of "Yes on 8" supporters gathered at the temecula duck pond. The following day 3 times as many "No on 8" supporters were at the same corner... no story, no photo. I think we can now see how the Californian can and does sway opinion. This is a printed infomercial for their own causes.

Pluto wrote on Nov 2, 2008 7:48 AM:Exodus 20-23 and other passages clearly command stoning for adultery. Why doesn't the "yes on H8" crowd enforce this command, because we are enlightened? Why are they enlightened on some things and not others? Either every word of the Bible is the word of God or it's not.

My theory, of course, is that so-called "Christian Conservatives" cherry-pick the passages that fit their own ignorance and prejudice (homosexuality) and ignore those that are inconvenient (no divorce, stoning for adultery, thou shalt not kill Iraqis).

AtheisticallyYours wrote on Nov 2, 2008 8:12 AM:NO ON 8! So the polygamsists can be next! Then people will see how incredibly STUPID IT IS to have any level of government "recognize" a private, EMOTIONAL CONTRACT between consenting adults! Gay, straight, bi-sexual, polyamorous! Use some reverse psychology and VOTE NO ON 8!

To Pluto and teacher wrote on Nov 2, 2008 8:20 AM:Jesus warned me that I would be persecuted for my belief, but he also told me I would have eternal life for being faithful to him.

You can attack Christians all day long, you can try to justify your sinful ways and thoughts anyway you want.

At the end of the day, those of us that are faithful to Christ , who have taken him into our hearts and acknowledge he is the savior and son of GOD. Will be the ones who will have eternal life.

You can choose your sinful ways or you can follow God's law , not man's law.

Christian's will still love our Gay brothers and sisters, we will just pray harder that they stray from the sin.

Peace, GOd bless and stop attacking Conservative Christian, God doesn't dig that and he will remember your unkind attacks on his children. That is a promise.

Yes on 8 wrote on Nov 2, 2008 8:23 AM:Myself and a huge Majority will be voting Yes on 8. No campaign can spend 10 times what we are , but you will not change they opinion of the masses.

You have already lost!!!!!!

RD wrote on Nov 2, 2008 8:24 AM:The breakdown of Family and Marriage is just another tool SATAN uses against us, REMEMBER that!

Yes on 8, its not to late

But Pluto wrote on Nov 2, 2008 8:31 AM:Didn't you hear?
God told Bush to invade Iraq!
Bush said so and Bush never lies!
And I believe in the tooth fairy!

Alf wrote on Nov 2, 2008 8:38 AM:Well, "RD" at 8:24AM,
adultery and divorce are rampant among heterosexual marriages as witnessed by a current 50 percent failure rate.
Your fear, used against you by religion is all you have, hot any rational reason.
Vote not to discriminate!
Vote NO on Prop. 8!
Regards, Alf.

disturbed wrote on Nov 2, 2008 8:43 AM:I cant believe that this proposition is so divisive! A yes on 8 is a vote for seperatism, segregation, bigotry. Get with it, folks. I dont remember ever having a class on 'marriage' in grade school or highschool. THat whole argument is b.s.

True Christian wrote on Nov 2, 2008 9:05 AM:I remember four decades ago when well-meaning but misguided Christian friends used the same arguments to argue that blacks and whites should remain "separate but equal." Most of those people are now ashamed of themselves for twisting God's words and God's love in such a way.

One day, you will feel the same way about this issue. This is about civil rights, equality, and curbing hate.

I hope you realize this in this life, and not on your day of judgement.

True Christians vote No on 8.

Stop flasunting gasy pride parades in our face wrote on Nov 2, 2008 9:07 AM:Is is that reason I urge a vote yes on 8!

Voter wrote on Nov 2, 2008 9:13 AM:Teacher, who would enjoy teaching kids about same sex marriage? What will you say, when a child asks you how two men make babies? It is not a natural method of conception is it. It is a question that you will put into the minds of children that should be focused on education not fornication.

To Yes wrote on Nov 2, 2008 9:17 AM:Polls are showing No in the lead...which goes to show that you can throw all the money you want at it, logic will prevail. Why can Christians persecute, but get martyred the other way around? You will still have to "pray" for your gay brother sand sisters...YES will not make them go back in the closet.

Honestly...... wrote on Nov 2, 2008 9:24 AM:I am so sick of the gay agenda being shoved down my throat, I am voting YES. Plain and simple!!!

How Pathetic wrote on Nov 2, 2008 9:25 AM:I have seen the teachers UNIONS use kids at school board meeting, city counsel meeting. Thur. I saw a group of kids protesting outside of the school on Oceanside Blv. and El Camino with NO on Prop. 8. I wonder why these kids were not in school and if their parents knew they were out there holding signs for the TEACHERS UNIONS instead of learning in school.

How Pathetic the Vista Unified School District TEACHERS UNIONS uses these kids to retain control of their political empire. Their presence at these meetings is counted as school credit.

A lot of anti Prop. 8 thugs are vandalizing with graffiti or stealing hundreds of Prop. 8 signs.

For a group that wants freedom they are acting like nazi's.

Todd wrote on Nov 2, 2008 9:28 AM:Is it 1/20/09 yet? Count me as a YES!!!
Best part is, I don't have to justify my vote to anyone, but myself!!!

STRAIGHT TEACHER GAL wrote on Nov 2, 2008 9:32 AM:The teachers union spent a million bucks plus hoping to win a no on # 8 and indoctrinate our kids on the benefits preversity.

Tyler wrote on Nov 2, 2008 9:33 AM:Alf, I am voting No on Tuesday, as well as my wife.

Secondly, I saw at least two references to "hate the sin, not the sinner." What credible evidence do you have to substantiate that homosexuality is a choice? And spare me the Bible verses, I've heard it all before.

I've never been able to understand how people who believe in a guy who taught love, compassion, and generosity can think that allowing discrimination into our state constitution is a compassionate, loving, and generous act.

Racial segregation was wrong wrote on Nov 2, 2008 9:35 AM:Because race is not a lifestyle. You can't choose race.

Wow wrote on Nov 2, 2008 10:09 AM:look at the numbers 400 people show up to fight against prop 8.....20,000 show up in support of prop 8. Wow!!! that's impressive.

Shameful Warfare wrote on Nov 2, 2008 10:12 AM:Prop 8 says nothing about teaching, let alone indoctrination, of children. That is a red herring.

Prop 8 support calls the Yes on 8 movement "WARFARE"—Jesus would be appalled at this fear and anger against God's children—our gay brothers and sisters, sons and daughters.

As a PEACEFUL Christian, I voted NO on 8

Throughout history, some have wished to take away rights from others with whom they hold personal animosity: other religions, women, and other races. They hide behind the Bible and the flag, to make themselves feel good about hurting their fellow man.

Prop 8 is the latest in this shameful history.

To Yes wrote on Nov 2, 2008 10:13 AM:where are you getting you numbers? All the polls are showing yes on 8 in the lead. Again, those against 8 are misleading the public.....again.

To Racial segregation was wrong wrote on Nov 2, 2008 10:16 AM:You can't choose sexual orientation, either. Did you?

Were you equally attracted to both sexes? Did you ever say to yourself, "I choose to be attracted to the opposite sex?"

OK OK OK wrote on Nov 2, 2008 10:20 AM:Let's legalize all other kinds of marriage as well as homosexual marriage!

Why is it OK for government to say that homosexual marriage is OK but polygemy is not? Why is it OK for government to say homosexual marriage is OK but marriage between a brother and sister is not? Why is it OK for all of you to pass judgement on those kind of marriages but tell the people that believe that marriage equals one man and one womam is wrong and that it is all about religion?

This campaign in the big scheme of things is not about rights, it is about preserving the morals that this country were established on. All of you should wake up, it is only the campaign for No on 8 that have made this abotu some imagined lost rights.

Please wake up and see that this is a political campaign to errode this country not a campaign about rights.

The Teachers Union Supports No on Prop 8 wrote on Nov 2, 2008 10:26 AM:The California Teachers Union supports no on 8, because they know they will have to hire a bunch of new teachers to teach the new agenda.

I usued to think this was a joke, but now 1.3 million Dollars later for something that is not supposed to be in the classrooms, I am not so sure.

I voted YES, and I do not feel guilty about it.

Choice wrote on Nov 2, 2008 10:33 AM:To Tyler,

Two things:
1) We know for sure that homosexuality is not genetic/determined because of the various identical twin studies where you have one homosexual twin and one heterosexual twin. That is not to say that homosexuality is a choice on the level of choosing what color shirt to wear in the morning. There is certainly both genetic predisposition and environmental factors that factor in to whether someone "is" a homosexual or not.
2) Even if homosexuality was completely genetic (no choice), it doesn't follow that homosexuality is therefore normal, moral, etc. That would be committing a logical fallacy called the is/ought fallacy. If one goes this direction, then you end up proving too much: you have to justify any behavior that someone doesn't have a "choice" in, whatever it may be (e.g. violent behavior, drug use, rape, "gay bashing" etc.).

So, when we approach this issue, we ought not go this direction.

Behavior is a choice wrote on Nov 2, 2008 10:45 AM:I don't think that the talk about whether homosexuality is a choice or not is terribly helpful.

What does seem to be helpful is discussion about what types of behaviors ought to be encouraged in our culture.

Behaviors, as we know, are always the result of choice. As a culture, we discourage many behaviors even though people have desires to act out in those ways. Here are many examples: assault, adultery, stealing, slander, rape, sex with children, marriage to a family member, marriage to multiple partners, driving on the left side of the road, etc. Discouragement of those behaviors is not the result of hate or intolerance, it is the result of a desire for what is best for society.

So, if those who are arguing for Yes on 8 are arguing to pass the proposition because it is best for society, then their position is not about immoral discrimination, hate, judgment, intolerance, etc. It is only about what is best for society. They may be wrong in their understanding of what is best about society and that can be argued about. But please stop calling them names- instead, please offer some good arguments.

What you forget is wrote on Nov 2, 2008 11:05 AM:We (homosexuals) CAN get married right now. This isn't a proposition of whether or not you would allow same-sex marriage, this is about STEALING marriages that ALREADY exist. We're not fighting TO get married, we're fighting to KEEP our marriages. If Prop 8 passes I can't wait to see who's marriages these people Steal next.

I hope. wrote on Nov 2, 2008 11:07 AM:Yes on prop 8 = uneducated bigoted / racist fools. I hope the fool’s children get smarter than their parents are. Vote NO on 8. For mankind’s sake..!

Grump wrote on Nov 2, 2008 11:10 AM:I agree with Honestly (9:24 AM). Who cares if Melvan loves Steve, just don't try to make the rest of us accept it as being normal. And what is with the churches in this article supporting gay marriege? I bet their God is pleased with that...another reason why I think religon is a joke.

Infidel wrote on Nov 2, 2008 11:24 AM:Tyler,

Here is the evidence you requested. Three islands, one for all men, the second for all women and the third for men and women. The object while on the islands is to create off spring.

Who will win? Your turn!

TO I hope. 1107 AM wrote on Nov 2, 2008 11:25 AM:I am voting Yes and I have an M.A. I guess I am not that uneducated. This has nothing to do with race, it has to do with marriage. How can I be a racist if I don’t want two people of the same sex to get married? LOL – you are funny!

Great debate wrote on Nov 2, 2008 11:27 AM:Although I am not a fan of gay marriage I am still voting No on Prop 8. In my family. . .including my wife, most want to hang on to the tradtional values of marriage we were raised with. ..and voted Yes on Eight. . .but as the debate rages.. .it looks like time to adjust our way of thinking for all people. . .not just the white, pseudo religious who relish sanctimony.

Times have certainly changed and so has the interpretation of religious mantra and the mandate to separate church and state as the Constitution demands.

Prop 8 again, looks like a last gasp from those that choose to influence everyone's personal choices by outdated religious controls.

Religious freedom comes in many forms and in twenty years the next generation will not care how marriage or civic union is defined.

If churches continue to use religion to influence our Constitution, however, it may be time to recind their tax-exempt status.

Tyler wrote on Nov 2, 2008 12:46 PM:To "Infidel,"


The problem with your statement is that you didn't explain how homosexuality is a choice: you only illustrated natural selection. While I may agree with your Darwinian example, you still did not answer the choice part.

But you got me thinking: because my wife and I refuse to have children, should our marriage be nullified or down-graded to a civil union?

To "Choice,"

Where did you find the information for your first point? I'm not trying to bait you or anything, just curious to read up on it.

Steve wrote on Nov 2, 2008 12:54 PM:I don't like anyone bringing the bible into this 'cos the practice of slavery is nowhere condemned in the bible, and that is far more immoral to allow people to be beat into submission by their masters, and worked to death in the mines and fields with no legal rights. Ephesians, chapter 6 verse 5 says; "Slaves, obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling, single mindedley, as serving Christ". When gays are mentioned in the same breath as rapists and murderes.

neffyh wrote on Nov 2, 2008 12:59 PM:For those idiot who think God doesnt like homosexuals. Why do we do such things if he forbids them, Even though i hate dr laura, these is a good letter

Dear Dr.

Laura:

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate.

I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the other specific laws and how to follow them:

When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them.

Should I smite them?

I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7.

In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness - Lev.15:19- 24. The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.



Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians.

Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death.

Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree.

Can you settle this?

Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses.

Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27.

How should they die?

I know from Lev.

11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? - Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev.

20:14)

I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

Alf wrote on Nov 2, 2008 1:23 PM:Well, "Tyler" at 9:33AM,
we, Mrs. Alf and I, will also be voting NO on Prop. 8.
I do not label homosexuals as sinners because love is not a sin.
Actually, I use the word "sin" only as a reference to the "yes on 8" folks.
The only crime involved here would be if 8 passes, then there would be the crime of discrimination based on sexual orientation.
Regards, Alf.

But Behavior is a choice wrote on Nov 2, 2008 1:31 PM:Please illuminate everyone when it was that you made a choice about the gender to which you are physically attracted.
What date? At what age did you make the choice? You can't have it both ways. You can't declare homosexuality to be a choice without also declaring heterosexuality a choice. If sexual orientation is a choice, when did you make your choice?

Got Rational Thought wrote on Nov 2, 2008 1:42 PM:The above bloggers may want to read the analysis by Scott Harris in today's Perspective section. It may be one of Scott's best articles ... He brings up so many cogent points about Prop 8 that demand a response from those who blindly follow every word in the Bible . . . something even Huckabee and Romney refused to do but apparently escape some bloggers, though.

Times have certainly changed and so has the interpretation of religious mantra and the mandate to separate church and state as the Constitution demands.

Prop 8 again, looks like a last gasp from those that choose to influence everyone's personal choices by outdated religious controls.

Religious freedom comes in many forms and the next generation will not care how marriage or civic union is defined.

If churches continue to use religion to influence our Constitution, however, it may be time to recind their tax-exempt status.

Yeah right wrote on Nov 2, 2008 1:54 PM:For those of you who actually believe that schools will be advocating same sex marriage in their classrooms. . . get real. It's time for you to visit a school and see the curriculum for yourselves.

Scare tactics made by the sanctimonious "not on my watch" right wingers have been spun throughout this election. . . . and just because someone says it . . .does not make it true.

This election will be close but Prop 8 will go down to defeat in spite of all of the lies and fear tactics.

why do gays flaunt it wrote on Nov 2, 2008 2:00 PM:If they woud just keep it to themselves there woud be less upset people. But no its "I'm gay so I shoud have this and this" etc. Or, "Im gay so lets grope eazch other in public and call it pride"

To Honestly...... wrote on Nov 2, 2008 2:01 PM:I'm sick of having the God agenda shoved down my throat.

Already voted NO on 8!

Maybe being gay isnt a choice but.... wrote on Nov 2, 2008 2:02 PM:It's still immoral. The parts dont fit. Disease is spread more too along with anal injuries.

CAVEL wrote on Nov 2, 2008 2:09 PM:Gays and lesbians would be denied first-class citizenship by Proposition 8. I quote from the decision of the California Supreme Court dated 5-15-08 "In Re Marriage Cases.": "Second, particularly in light of the historic disparagement of and
discrimination against gay persons, there is a very significant risk that retaining a
distinction in nomenclature with regard to this most fundamental of relationships
whereby the term “marriage” is denied only to same-sex couples inevitably will
cause the new parallel institution that has been made available to those couples to
be viewed as of a lesser stature than marriage and, in effect, as a mark of secondclass
citizenship." Exactly. Be fair, be just and vote NO on Prop 8!!

To Steve wrote on Nov 2, 2008 2:09 PM:Since you brought up Ephesians, let me add the ending of that section: "And masters, treat your slaves in the same way. Do not threaten them, since you know that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no favoritism with him." Paul isn't giving an endorsement to slavery or servants. He is simply giving commands to those who are already either masters or slaves. He makes is pretty clear that they are equals.

BTW, I could also quote verses that condemn the harsh type of slavery that was practiced over the last few centuries, but that is way off topic for this blog. They're there if you care to look.

I fear for thenext generation wrote on Nov 2, 2008 2:12 PM:They are being taught that Christianity is evil, morals are evil, that separation of church state is in the Constitution (its not, the 1st Amendment says no such thing), and that if a woman gets pregnant she can just expel a living being from her body like an inconvenience. Jesus said in the last days evil would be called good and good evil. Looks like He is right.

Its simple wrote on Nov 2, 2008 2:16 PM:The "Yes on 8" folks are just a bunch of perverts who want to be involved with what's happening in everyone's bedrooms and personal life.

freedom is the key wrote on Nov 2, 2008 2:19 PM:The next step is putting Churches out of business if they don't fully buy into the Gay agenda. Marry us or we go into court. LOL.

To Neffy wrote on Nov 2, 2008 2:35 PM:funny how you pick your phrases out of the bible with out counter phrasing them with the correct phrases. If you thinkg that bashing the bible and showing your hate for God makes you a happier person then by all means do so. Everyone just think about this for a minute. If man and a man married and a woman and a woman marry, procreation will cease. Yes, it will take centuries, but the stupid side of the human race is going to wipe out the human race. Just like the book of Revelations tells us...this non-sense of same sex marriage shouldn't surpirse anyone. My child who is under the age of 10 has already come home asking me questions about 8. A child in the classroom is announcing that his 2 mom's are getting married. Wow, tell me this isn't affecting our kids already. Prop 8 must pass!!! It's already in our school.

CAVEL wrote on Nov 2, 2008 2:40 PM:This morning a flier was on my doorknob urging a Yes vote on Prop 8. It says that a Yes vote "Protects children from being taught about gay marriage in school." and that it "Restores traditional marriage." Such baloney. Prop 8 says NOTHING about teaching anything to anybody. At the bottom of the flier it says, "Major funding by Knights of Columbus..." Knights of Columbus is a mouthpiece for the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops. Catholic Bishops are the same guys who have protected pedophile priests and who went to great lengths to hide and conceal their conduct from the proper authorities and public view. Cardinal Law was removed as Archbishop of Boston for his complicity in the scandals that have almost bankrupted that archdiocese. Many other bishops have been removed for the same reasons but only after public outrage reached a boiling point and the Pope had no other choice. It would be better if the Catholic Church taught children to be aware of inapproriate conduct by adults and to report that than to teach them hatred and bigotry against gays and lesbians and same-sex marriage.

warning wrote on Nov 2, 2008 3:03 PM:"Yeah right" claims that schools won't be advocating same sex marriage in the classroom. That surprises me because as I looked at my kindergartener's homework handouts for the week, the bottom was clearly labeled "family unit". The stories we read include phrases like "I see daddy", "I see mommy"... So will it now read "I see mommy 1", "I see mommy 2"? By redefining marriage to include homosexual couples, you are changing everything. My aunt who is a teacher has explained that this will mean the inclusion of all types of books (like "King and King") into the classroom. It will be required if Prop. 8 proponents aren't able to restore traditional marriage from what the 4 judges ruled earlier this year.

Although other areas of the state wait to see how Prop. 8 pans out, there are those in the Bay Area who aren't being shy at all about implementing this new marriage mindset. How do you explain the busload of 5 and 6 year-olds who went on a field trip to their lesbian teacher's wedding (and on school time nonetheless)? Or how about the elementary school in Hayward California that had "gay day" a week and a half ago. Even the kindergarten kids had to sign pro-gay pledges. There was no parental notification etc. either. Wake up! This is the reality of where this is going. For all those who feel like kids are being manipulated, feeding this stuff to our kids is the ultimate manipulation. It's a parent's job to teach their kids and we should have the right to know in advance what they are being taught and have a say.

Finally, my middle schooler was sick the other day and I was called to pick her up. I find in ironic that the nurse could not give her Tylenol but the school will be teaching her all about the homosexual lifestyle. That same nurse who can't give my kid an over the counter med will, if prop 4 fails, be able to arrange for a pregnant middle schooler to get an abortion without parental knowledge or consent. This is the kind of world we are evolving into. Darwin himself would be scared by what we've become.

Please vote YES on 8!

If If Homosexuality is a Choice wrote on Nov 2, 2008 3:03 PM:In order for it to be a choice, we all make the choice. If we all make the choice, we must all be equally attracted to both sexes (otherwise, it isn't a choice). So, were all of you who claim it's a "choice" equally attracted to your own sex? And when did you "choose" to go with the opposite sex? Did you then stop feeling attraction to your own sex? Or do you just suppress it?
Please explain.

Mormons on the Corner wrote on Nov 2, 2008 3:13 PM:Why are the Mormons trying to hide that they are behind Prop 8? It makes you wonder what their true agenda is. Is this a test to see if they can play with the state consititution? There was a mormon bishop leading the pro H8 demonstration at College and Oceanside blvds.

pigme wrote on Nov 2, 2008 3:16 PM:i am straight and have gay friends and relations.
All of them are hard working taxpayers and good people.
If they want to marry, then so be it.
i hope gays will come to California and wedd, it would be good for the economy.

Saying so, if prop 8 is voted in you can thank that loud mouth mayor of San Francisco!

Threats wrote on Nov 2, 2008 3:36 PM:There are actually threats on here toward anyone who is not a "Christian?" If I accepted Jesus into my heart decades ago, but I'm still voting no on 8, does that mean I've fallen out of "His" graces and am damned to a life without eternity? Why is it that Christians are the most intolerant and judgmental among us? Isn't one of the mantras to "hate the sin but love the sinner?" Actions speak louder than words.

While I was raised to acecpt Jesus into my heart, I was also taught that we're all the same, have the same rights, and that God does not discriminate. And above all else, "do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

People are so afraid of children hearing anything about gay marriage - I'm guessing for fear that it might "make them gay." Do you know how much the "Yes on 8" people have done to get the topic of "gay marriage" out there? Congratulations.

Keep religion out of the public sector, please! Vote NO on H8.

To neffyh wrote on Nov 2, 2008 3:41 PM:I sure would like to hear some type of response to your letter from the prop 8 supporters besides the sound of crickets.

Like Billy Graham wrote on Nov 2, 2008 3:42 PM:has said,"Someday God will have to apologize to Sodom and Gomorah when it comes to America." We live in a country that sends a student home for dressing up as Jesus for halloween because he was causing too much of a disruption. And want to even consider that men marrying men and women marrying women and teaching our children this is right just because the 2 love each other is an abomination to God.

To But Behavior is a Choice wrote on Nov 2, 2008 3:52 PM:Please reread my post above. You are responding to claims I didn't make.

Let me be clear: there is a difference between the attractions/desires one has and the behaviors one chooses to take. I was focusing in on the behaviors that are a choice of the will, not attractions/desires.

However, I would say that homosexuals do not choose the attractions/desires that they have. I believe that their homosexual attractions are the result of both nature and nurture factors. But, I do not believe that they should act on those impulses because that would be immoral, unnatural and not good for the society. This is the exact same approach I take to those who have impulses to have sexual relations with children (note: I am not saying that homosexuals and pedophiles are the same people, this is only an illustration to help you understand). I am not saying anything about the value of the person who holds these desires; I am only saying that acting out on these desires is wrong.

There is nothing racist, hateful, etc. about my position. If you think I am racist/hateful toward homosexuals, then you have to also argue that I am racist/hateful toward pedophiles, those who practice polygamy, those who assault people, those who steal, etc.

Hate or Love wrote on Nov 2, 2008 3:59 PM:If it is apparently hateful for me to vote to keep marriage between one man and one woman, why do I have feelings of brotherly love for my homosexual coworkers and friends? Or is it possible (gasp) that I have thought through the issue and have good philosophical and ethical reasons for my vote while still maintaining that all humans are equally valuable?

Or for those who are opposing prop 8, is this too difficult a concept for you to understand? Because, as it appears in your postings and attitudes toward the Yes on 8 folks, disagreement with a fellow human being means that you also hate them and desire harm done to them.

To Cavel wrote on Nov 2, 2008 4:00 PM:One correction: The term "marriage" would not ONLY be denied to same-sex couples. It would also be denied to men marrying multiple women, women marrying multiple men, men or women marrying children, etc.

TO To Honestly...... 201 PM wrote on Nov 2, 2008 4:06 PM:Yeah, but if Muslims want something they get it. You libs just hate Christians. Muslims can pray in school, but Christians can't.

Identical Twin Studies wrote on Nov 2, 2008 4:20 PM:Re the "Choice" post above and my citation of Twin Studies.

Here is some info I lifted from a 2005 Boston Globe article talking about where homosexuality comes from.

"[In 1991,] Boston University psychiatrist Richard Pillard and Northwestern University psychologist J. Michael Bailey announced the results of their study of male twins. They found that, in identical twins, if one twin was gay, the other had about a 50 percent chance of also being gay. For fraternal twins, the rate was about 20 percent. Because identical twins share their entire genetic makeup while fraternal twins share about half, genes were believed to explain the difference."

In summary, because 100% of identical twins are not both homosexual, it is proven that homosexuality is not 100% genetic. That is very clear. From the research, it appears that homosexuality results from both genetic predisposition and environment (e.g. whether a father is present in the home, sexual abuse, other factors).

So, homosexuality is most likely neither "not a choice" nor "a choice"- it is something in between. So, we need to be looking beyond this issue of choice because it is neither morally relevant to the discussion (we don't want to commit the is/ought fallacy) or even informative.

Reality check wrote on Nov 2, 2008 4:20 PM:According to the "No on 8" ads, California Teachers spent over $1,000,000 opposing Prop. 8. How can one possibly say this will not affect the school system. Of course it will. It will all come under the guise of teaching tolerance.

The CTA also spent $450,000 opposing Prop. 4. Funny how the opponents to Prop. 8, say "mind your own business and stay out of our bedrooms" yet see nothing wrong with telling other people's children it's okay for them to get an abortion without telling their parents. How's that for minding your own business!

Liz wrote on Nov 2, 2008 4:29 PM:I do not understand how people could base their “choices” on how to love people based on a BOOK that a MAN wrote and call this book the word of the Lord humm... The God that I CHOOSE to believe in and teach my children about is a loving God that accepts us and loves us no matter what! Why do you people have to have a cult gathering at Qualcomm to show just how much YOU can HATE? Yeah you might want to second-guess your choice on the book you base your whole life on. NO ON 8 for PEACE!

Monte wrote on Nov 2, 2008 4:41 PM:OK, let me break some stereotypes here. I am voting YES and I am an atheist. I also: can’t stand religion, eat organic, hate Bush, practice yoga, participate in environmental clean-ups and have an education past the third grade.

Alf wrote on Nov 2, 2008 4:45 PM:Well, "Like Billy Graham" at 3:42PM,
If this nation was a theocracy you argument might be valid.
The United States of America is not a theocracy.
We are a democratic republic and the First Amendment of the Constitution is there to protect BOTH freedom OF religion AND freedom FROM religion for each and every one of us.
The Framers of the Constitution were still stinging from the crudola of the Church of England when they wrote that First Amendment.
A pox on those who attempt to interject religion into government, to codify THEIR religion into law.
Do not discriminate!
Vote NO on Prop. 8!
Regards, Alf.

Jeff wrote on Nov 2, 2008 4:53 PM:I'm generally a conservative person, a registered Republican in fact, who is voting no on 8. I don't think homosexuals should be given special treatment and not be allowed to get married. I think they should have the opportunity to be as miserable as everyone else.

aDAMANT wrote on Nov 2, 2008 4:54 PM:TO TYLER: I understand that God wants us to love one another. Even our enemies. As far as homosexuality goes: He condemns is and is one of the greatest sins. According to the Bible marriage is between a man and a woman.

No on 8 wrote on Nov 2, 2008 4:56 PM:Prop 8 isnt about anything except eliminating rights by altering the constitution. There is nothing in the proposition about schools or children or anything like that. Why do the yes people insist on claiming this?

All Prop 8 does is write discrimination into the state constitution. It takes away the rights of gays to marry. Gays can already marry in California. Civil Unions are not marriage just like separate water fountains for whites and "coloreds" were not equal.

Discrimination is wrong. Hatred is evil. Vote No on Prop 8.

But Behavior is a Choice wrote on Nov 2, 2008 5:03 PM:Simple word-play. I do believe that you have heard of the phrase "two consenting adults" and if you have, then you know that it applies to homosexaul behavior as well as heterosexual behavior. While religion and some segments may frown on many behaviors that are between "two consenting adults", society recognizes that there are limits on how much control it may lord over its members. The fact remains that marriage, whether heterosexual or homosexual is between "two consenting adults" and that differentiating legal status between heterosexual and homosexual marriages is, in fact, discriminatory and such purposeful discrimination is in violation of the Constitution.

Susan wrote on Nov 2, 2008 5:20 PM:Since same sex marriage has been legal for months now - how has it affected you? Christians can get married no matter what the case so ..... uphold the Constitution and

Protect religious freedom and VOTE NO ON PROP 8!

Pablo wrote on Nov 2, 2008 5:48 PM:Who cares? You are losing your homes and the economy is in the crapper and you are worried about gay marriage?? Let them take the hit in taxes I do for being married. Get the government out of out bedroom!

Free Speech wrote on Nov 2, 2008 5:54 PM:Well kids, I went to get my nails done today. Left my new car parked with my "NO" sign on the dashboard. When I returned my car had been hit with "YES" bumper stickers. So much for my free speech and personal property. I should have reported it as vandalism and a hate crime.

No on 8 haters wrote on Nov 2, 2008 5:56 PM:Bigot , haters. Is that the best u can do. Thats what liberals do. To shut down a conversation or an opinion they resort to name calling.

God will make you pay dearly for attacking him, his commands and his children. When you are all burning in LLEH, we Christian's will have the last laugh won't we!!!!!!


Satan is in your heart, temptation is your worst enemy and you call it Tolerance. You better change your ways because the end is drawing near.

YEs on 8

Re TO To Honestly...... 201 PM wrote on Nov 2, 2008 5:56 PM:"Yeah, but if Muslims want something they get it. You libs just hate Christians. Muslims can pray in school, but Christians can't."

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You couldn't be more wrong. No one should be praying in school. The pledge of allegiance should be reverted back to its original text ... as should the words on our money. I am a confirmed Lutheran who believes God (whichever God you pick) is a mythological creature used by spiteful men (people) to obtain a desired result by spreading fear and loathing to the masses.

Don't get mad at me just because you happen to be one of those sheep who fall in line behind it.

I subscribe to no label and wish for even just a small dose of humanity and common sense to affect us all. The sad thing is that, for common sense to truly take hold, people have to be able to think for themselves .. which they are unable to do if they need some mystic in the sky to tell them not to steal, kill, covet or whatever.

Stop listening to the conscience being fed to you and find your own ... then vote it. We may still not agree, but at least it's something you could truly call your own ... and that's a start.

Already voted NO on 8!!!!!

Escondido Yes On 8 Rally wrote on Nov 2, 2008 5:57 PM:On Saturday, there were several hundred people along Valley Parkway waving Yes On 8 signs. It was great to see.

Isaac wrote on Nov 2, 2008 5:59 PM:This may come as a great shock to you, but some Americans are not Christian and are tired of having Christian morality foisted upon them. Some of us are even quite capable of making our own decisions regarding our private lives, without a church telling us what we should think is right or wrong.
Your way is not my way, and I don't want the State Constitution making your opinion into law.
Vote no on 8 & let people make their own decisions on how they choose to live!

Christian wrote on Nov 2, 2008 5:59 PM:I am a Christian, but can longer bear to sit in church. The hypocrisy kills me.

To To But Behavior is a Choice wrote on Nov 2, 2008 6:02 PM:Thank you for explaining your position. Your analogy of not acting on impulse in regards to sexual attraction to children is not applicable because children 1. are not consenting, adults, and 2. are coerced into behavior they have understanding of nor developmental readiness for. (Also, most sexual child abuse is perpetrated by straight men.)

But the logic you use is that even though homosexuals are naturally attracted to their own gender, they should refrain because of YOUR morality. There is an innocent victim involved. No one is coerced. But YOU think it's morally wrong, so you want to force others to conform to YOUR moral code. Why shouldn't consenting adults, decide what is moral for themselves, when there is no victim, no crime? Yes on 8 people want to force their religious beliefs on everyone else and that is wrong. Its discriminatory, born of fear and that is wrong too.

Rebel Against King George wrote on Nov 2, 2008 6:03 PM:Ronald George has set himself up as our King with the power to bestow 'fundamental rights' upon favored subjects. Return the power of government back to the people. Vote YES ON 8.

how about this wrote on Nov 2, 2008 6:17 PM:Give us back the Rainbow. The rainbow was for all races now it means you are gay. Why the gay pride day/parade whatever? Why be so gay, just be. People would freak out if they did a white pride parade. They have rights too you know.

Family man wrote on Nov 2, 2008 6:18 PM:The problem with the issue at hand is the State of California passed Proposition 22 and it rules only a man and a woman could be married. The State Supreme Court over ruled it.

No the voters are going to vote for this again. What will the State Supremem Court do if this ammendment passes again? Will they over rule it.

The only thing I am concerned about is will the state start telling religious institutions they need to perform same-sex marriages? Churches need the right to believe what they want and if they don't want to marry gay couples then they shouldn't have to. Gay couples can et married at a place where they are accepted.

Pretty clear like it or not wrote on Nov 2, 2008 6:31 PM:The bible is very clear about one thing. Homosexulaity is an abomination and totally unacceptable. Jesus told people he was with, good or bad, to turn from their bad ways, and follow him and his example. Sodom and Gomorah were destroyed specifically because of homosexuality and perversions. You can try and believe something else, but the facts are there loud and very clear time and again. I don't belong to any church but I understand what is written.

S Jackson wrote on Nov 2, 2008 7:47 PM:Listen to my commercial, discrimination is wrong in any form.

You need to trust that state certified teachers will instruct your kids on gay sex better than what they will learn on the streets. Might as well learn it in a controlled environment, right??

No, this will not lead to polygamism or any other chocolate fantasy you have.

Satan worshiper wrote on Nov 2, 2008 7:52 PM:Lucifer, the prince of this world, commands all of his followers to vote no on 8. It is his will so let it be done.

Hypocrites wrote on Nov 2, 2008 8:14 PM:I guess "religious freedom" is a good thing when it comes to demanding that gays get their rights taken away, but not a good thing when it comes to religious groups like the Unitarian Universalists, the United Church of Christ, the United Methodists, Episcopalians, Reform Jews, and others who WANT Marriage Equality. Admit it, you want YOUR religious freedom, but you don't want THEM to have THEIRS.

The Truth wrote on Nov 2, 2008 8:31 PM:Let's legalize all other kinds of marriage as well as homosexual marriage!

Why is it OK for government to say that homosexual marriage is OK but polygemy is not? Why is it OK for government to say homosexual marriage is OK but marriage between a brother and sister is not? Why is it OK for all of you to pass judgement on those kind of marriages but tell the people that believe that marriage equals one man and one womam is wrong and that it is all about religion?

This campaign in the big scheme of things is not about rights, it is about preserving the morals that this country were established on. All of you should wake up, it is only the campaign for No on 8 that have made this abotu some imagined lost rights.

Please wake up and see that this is a political campaign to errode this country not a campaign about rights.

What Prop 8 IS about wrote on Nov 2, 2008 9:02 PM:Contrary to the many posts on here from opponents of prop 8, the reason I support prop 8 does not include me being bigoted, intolerant, hateful, etc.

The reasons I am voting for prop 8 include:
- Thousands of years of governments (including ours) have recognized that families are essential to providing stable environments for children to grow and develop.
- The type of family that is most conducive to growing children in the most healthy way is one in which the two people who came together to make the child remain together and create a supportive environment for the child to develop and grow.
- Therefore, marriage is about children. And because the relationship of one woman and one man is the type of relationship that naturally produces children, it is in the state's interest to promote that sort of relationship.
- Nature, experience and research shows that children need a father, a mother, a stable and supportive environment in which to develop.

So, that is why I am voting Yes on prop 8. I am not trying to "deny" the rights of homosexuals and polygamists to marry (in fact, they already have the same rights to marry that I do). I don't hate anyone, nor am I "intolerant." I am just trying to do what is best for our civilization.

To Pretty Clear wrote on Nov 2, 2008 9:06 PM:The only thing that is pretty clear is that you have absolutely no comprehension as to the way our form of government works.

It doesn't matter what Jesus said when it comes to matters of law. Jesus is Church ... Law is State ... and never the two shall mix.

Re To Neffy wrote on Nov 2, 2008 9:11 PM:"My child who is under the age of 10 has already come home asking me questions about 8. A child in the classroom is announcing that his 2 mom's are getting married. Wow, tell me this isn't affecting our kids already."

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Gee, I think I know someone who needs to step up to the plate, be a parent and have a conversation with their child about an issue that has come up through the course of a standard social childhood experience. Express your point of view. Instead of blaming other people for what your child has heard, put what he/she has heard in a context that is appropriate for you.

Once you're done, go somewhere quiet ... get down on your knees, fold your hands & bow your head ... then pray that your child never comes home to tell you he/she is gay knowing they have to second guess whether or not you will still love them.

To What Prop 8 IS about wrote on Nov 2, 2008 9:16 PM:Point 1: Thousands of years of governments (including ours) have recognized that families are essential to providing stable environments for children to grow and develop. ... Just because it has been doesn't mean it always should be. Not all traditions are good ones.

Point 2: The type of family that is most conducive to growing children in the most healthy way is one in which the two people who came together to make the child remain together and create a supportive environment for the child to develop and grow. ... Good luck finding that today. Two people do not need to join to bear/raise children. My son is the product of a single parent household because my choice of mates at the time completely sucked. He never cared enough to participate and my son is better off for it. (still hetero by the way)

Point 3: Therefore, marriage is about children. And because the relationship of one woman and one man is the type of relationship that naturally produces children, it is in the state's interest to promote that sort of relationship. ... If you're so concerned with the kids you should promote some type of licensing process in order for someone to reproduce. We have far too many stupid people breeding today and it's only going to get worse if we keep letting just anyone do it.

Point 4: Nature, experience and research shows that children need a father, a mother, a stable and supportive environment in which to develop. ... Refer back to point 2

To To To But Behavior is a Choice wrote on Nov 2, 2008 9:17 PM:Let me deal with all of your concerns and try to point the discussion in the right direction:

1) Every analogy breaks down somewhere, so you can just pick another example that you are comfortable with. How about denying licensed drivers who are intoxicated the right to act upon their desire to get behind the wheel and drive? That should work.

2) You think that Yes on 8 people are trying to stop homosexuals from engaging in homosexual relationships, from what I can gather from your post. Understand that I am not advocating any sort of position where I would stop homosexuals from acting out on their impulses. A vote for prop 8 does nothing to stop homosexuals from getting married (according to the same parameters as everyone else), from getting a domestic partnership with a homosexual partner, from engaging in homosexual sexual activities, etc. I am all for giving homosexuals the freedom to have sexual relations with other same-sex consenting adults. So, I am not forcing "my" morality on anyone, in terms of their behavior.
What I am doing is trying to keep the definition of marriage the same as it has been for thousands of years (and I have very good ethical and philosophical reasons for doing so). It is a defensive move against the homosexual activists who are trying to force their morality on me. Let's be very clear about that. Prop 8 wouldn't be necessary if homosexual activists weren't already forcing their views on everyone else.

Protect Steak wrote on Nov 2, 2008 9:22 PM:The prayers at the stadium will keep the gay commandos from raiding my home with gay lasers and forcing my wife to divorce me! Thanks for protecting marriage!

I just hope they still have enough energy left over to protect traditional beef Steak from the assault by the radical tofu agenda. Steak is a sacred institution that has been around for thousands of years, and now all of a sudden a group of FOUR liberal activist judges think they can make it normal to grill a piece of tofu and call it "Steak." That is an attack on my family's rights and values!

Steak comes from cows. Can two pieces of tofu make a little piece of baby tofu like a bull and a heifer can make a calf? No! Did a male tofu and a female tofu get on Noah's ark together? I didn't think so! God made Toro and Bessie, not Silken and Extra Firm!

And tofu confuses children! The little girl sitting next to my eight-year-old son at the school lunch table last week told him that she was eating a tofu "steak." He told her that there's no such thing but the teacher told him it's NORMAL! If we don't pass Prop S, this will happen to your child, too!

And before you know