Democrats for Eight too wrote on Nov 7, 2008 1:20 AM:The Vote in California is 40% greater to Protect Marriage than for McCain for President.

One and a half million more votes to protect marriage in California than for McCain for president

The "Yes on 8" vote to define marriage as the union of a man and a woman includes Democrats and Republicans, independents and others.
It was obviously NOT just conservative Christians. Just look at the votes.
The statewide count late Thursday is:
Yes on Proposition 8...5,417,748
McCain for President...3,874,726.
The difference is 1,543,022. That is 39.8% greater for "Yes on 8" than for McCain.

Parental Notification wrote on Nov 7, 2008 1:23 AM:Parental Notification won in most counties, but lost statewide.

Most California Counties approved the Parental Notification Proposition

California Prop 4 was defeated with a 48% to 52% vote overall.
Prop 4 would have required doctors to notify an adult family member within 48 hours before performing an abortion on a non-emancipated minor.
Notice that did not require consent, only notification

A review by county on the Secretary of State's web site shows MOST counties were 57% or higher in favor of it including some counties with large populations.

Several counties were over 67% for it.

The proposition was defeated statewide by only several counties in the San Francisco Bay area where prop 4 had strong opposition

San Francisco County 23.9% Yes
Marin County 25.7% Yes
San Mateo County 36.9% Yes
Alameda County 35.7% Yes
and several nearby smaller counties

Chicken cages wrote on Nov 7, 2008 1:27 AM:California votes big to require chickens and hens to get larger cages, but rejects parental notification to better care for girls and babies.

Compare these two California Propositions. (count as of late Thursday night)
Proposition 4
To require parental notification, but not parental approval, got 4,788,032 votes.
Proposition 2
To require farm animals and chickens to have larger cages 6,290,767 votes.
That is 1,502,735 more votes. That is 31% greater.
It is incredible that the voters in California would choose to provide greater protection to farm animals than young girls and babies! How could increased regulations to protect farm animals be an overwhelming success, while a majority of voters failed to approve a measure providing for the protection of our children and babies? It does not seem right!

Millions of Ballots Uncounted wrote on Nov 7, 2008 3:32 AM:Millions Of Ballots Remain Uncounted

18.5% of the California ballots are still uncounted on Thursday Evening.
I was surprised to read there are still over 2,361,000 ballots not yet counted according to the Secretary of State web site, and a little over 10,402,000 counted. That is 18.5% still uncounted at of Thursday night. The uncounted ballots are mostly main-in-ballots received Tuesday by mail or brought to polling places in person, 1,630,167. Those are waiting for the signatures to be verified. The mail-in-ballots received by Monday were verified and included in the results released Tuesday night. There are also about 621.829 provisional ballots. There are also about 109,152 ballots that could not be machine counted and will have to be recopied.
It seems likely to me that these ballots will not make any difference in the winners except in very close races because there is not likely to be much difference in the voting by persons bringing mail-in-ballots to the polls on Tuesday and those voting in person on Tuesday.

Liberals Actions wrote on Nov 7, 2008 3:40 AM:There is a really interesting letter today above; "What do Liberals Truly Believe". The letter by Darrell Cummings brings outsome interesting observations.

GrayDavisClonage wrote on Nov 7, 2008 6:20 AM:Do you remember what happened to the pathetic Gray Davis, when he hid the real condition of California's finances until after the election, in order to save his own sorry butt and that of the ultra left wing legislature? Now it looks like Unhuld, and his band of ultra left-winged legislators have done the same thing to Callyfornians. I believe he's less competent than Gray Davis and cant be kicked out fast enough. And then, Hussein can join him in 4 years. The California reign of terror on the taxpayer has begun, because these morons will talk about spending cuts, but not one cent will make it throught the legislature to his desk. The Franchise Tax Board has already become a band of jack boots, clicking their heels and raiding people's bank accounts. And this is just the beginning

Chuck wrote on Nov 7, 2008 6:24 AM:>>>What do liberals truly believe?>>

This is what they believe, and it was all summed up by a lady who was interviewed after Obama won: "Thank the Lord, I no longer have to worry about my mortgage payment or gas for my car"
And it goes a bit deeper into the indoctrination of the school kiddies into the homosexual lifestyle and abortion on demand, with parent notification in both cases prohibited

Bob wrote on Nov 7, 2008 6:30 AM:You pretty much nailed it, Darrell Cummings. When they aren't opposing teaching flat earth alternative views in the classroom, they're cruising around in their Volvos looking for 77 year old conservatives to beat up.

Is this you, Floyd?

Wanda wrote on Nov 7, 2008 6:41 AM:Darrell Cummings quips: "I could go on..."

Please don't.

jvc wrote on Nov 7, 2008 6:52 AM:I hope the minute Obama takes his oath
of office, he will order the troops home! If this is cut and run, so be it!
We have been running from our own needs for far too long!

Roger wrote on Nov 7, 2008 6:58 AM:Yea, Darrell Cummings, those wacko liberals advocate killing fetuses left and right "without due process" but then whine about a few thousand soldiers killed in our ruinously expensive, counterproductive war in Ieaq. Go figure.

Fred wrote on Nov 7, 2008 7:08 AM:That Darrell Cummings is right on top of the situation. If it weren't for right thinking citizens like Darrell, those pesky liberals would have made same sex marriage mandatory with Prop. 8.

Praise the Lord!

Liberals believe wrote on Nov 7, 2008 8:09 AM:it is free speech to block traffic and throw a tantrum when they are told what they want to do is unlawful.

sin or sinner wrote on Nov 7, 2008 8:22 AM:Supporters of Prop 8 are always defending themselves against accusations of being hate-mongers by saying that they hate the sin, love the sinner. Really? Let me ask you this: how many homosexuals said, "Oh, I cannot marry, so I guess I'll stop practicing homosexuality now."? Answer: zero. So the "sin" is completely unaffected by Prop 8. But the sinners? They are punished and being told that they are of a different class of people than heterosexuals. That's the deal, folks, hate the sinner, ignore the sin. Great job, Christian soldiers. Hypocrisy as usual.

Apollo wrote on Nov 7, 2008 8:25 AM:Re: Darrell Cummings (letter)
The reason Cummings seems confused about what liberals' views is that, from his description, it seems he does not understand liberal views.
He finds it inconsistent that liberals support a free exchange of ideas but oppose "alternative views" of science in science classrooms. These "alternative views" are already taught in public schools, as comparative religion or mythology. Which "alternative views" should be taught? Old Testament? Koran? The Vedas? Creation myths from the original inhabitants of this continent? There are many such creation myths and trying to use valuable science classroom time to teach all of them would leave no time for real science. None of these other "alternative views" of the origin of life are based on scientific methodology.
And is Cummings consistent?
Does he suggest the same standard in astronomy as in biochemistry? Does he believe that "alternative views" such as astrology or a geocentric universe should be taught alongside modern astronomy?

Floyd wrote on Nov 7, 2008 8:31 AM:I do not live in Carlsbad, so that letter is not from me. The letter-writer does raise some interesting and valid points, though. I would have said that liberals are generally self-centered, violently opinionated, and make decisions based on "feelings" instead of logic or facts. Fortunately, there are a few of us outgoing and deliberative scientists around to guide them into mainstream society when they decide they need help.

TFB wrote on Nov 7, 2008 8:36 AM:Various blogs today along with Darrell Cummings' letter compare parental notification on abortion to giving kids an aspirin in school.
The comparison is flawed.
Aspirin does not carry the moral stigma that abortion does, especially if the abortion is caused by parental rape.
The downside for aspirin is that it can cause allergic reactions, up to and including death, that only the parents might be aware of, while the upside is minimal, temporary ease of minor discomfort.
In contrast, the downside for early-term abortion is extremely minimal, while the alternative, the downside for continuing an unwanted pregnancy, is the loss of nine months of one's biological autonomy, the risk of severe and serious complications including death, and life-changing consequences that are wonderful when freely chosen but catastrophic when forced on a woman against her will.

And for those who think parents should decide about girls' abortions, will they feel the same way when practical-minded, sterm parents insist on an abortion, but a dreamy-eyed, idealistic girl wants to keep her baby and is sure it won't interfere with education or career plans? Or do they support parental rights only when the parents agree with them, kinda like how that "will of the people" thing is applied so selectively.

The Cummings letter further equates abortion to the "murder of an innocent child." Sorry, Darrell, but it is not a child. Up until late in the 2nd trimester, it does not even have measurable brain waves. And even a fully sentient human person does not have the right to forcibly use someone else's body to keep him alive, or occupy the most private part of a woman's body against her will for even nine minutes much less nine months, something Darrell could never be forced to experience. Her body, her choice. Period.

esteban wrote on Nov 7, 2008 8:44 AM:All opposing views to the liberal are hate speech. Look for the liberal pres and congress to eliminate conservative talk radio. Libs are the ultimate hypocrates. It's their way or the highway. Please Obama, prove me wrong!

Get real wrote on Nov 7, 2008 8:50 AM:Apollo, evolution is taught in schools as if it is a proven fact and needs no further debate. Why not teach all view points and let the students decide for themselves? I disagree with your statement that "alternative views" are taught in the clasroom as mythology or comparative religion as my kids schools do not offer those courses in public school, so how could they be taught? maybe you need to check into the local schools before making statements you are not knowledgeable about.

Oh Please wrote on Nov 7, 2008 8:52 AM:Floyd[-] wrote on Nov 7, 2008 8:31 AM: Please see your shrink today. Take your meds.

Wanda wrote on Nov 7, 2008 8:56 AM:Fortunately, Floyd, at 8:31 AM, is here to help. But before Floyd can "...guide them into mainstream society when they decide they need help" they have to admit they have a problem. Perhaps we need a "Liberals Anonymous" :)

To TFB wrote on Nov 7, 2008 9:00 AM:Recently I heard a recording of a fetuses heartbeat at 2 weeks. It would seem to reason that when you have a heart beat you are still alive, right? Because last I checked when your heart stops your dead! Am I missing something here?

jvc wrote on Nov 7, 2008 9:04 AM:The governor is about to raise our taxes! Where is Richard Rider when we need him? How could the Republicans
allow this to happen?

to Get Real wrote on Nov 7, 2008 9:05 AM:One of the lies of the creationists is that their idea is a scientific theory or hypothesis of some kind. It's not. It avoids testable hypostheses like the plague. All it consists of is efforts to show that scientific theories are not perfect. This is NOT evidence FOR anything. In addition, what it DOES assert is that there is a supernatural force in nature. This is, by definition, outside science. So again, it has no place in a science curriculum. It's part of the mythology of a couple of the world's many religions. Some schools offer it in other classes, some don't. If you want it taught to your child, it should be done in a religious school and/or at home. Simple. I cannot fathom why this is so hard for people to grasp. Once you get to the college level, where curriculums are designed by experts and practitioners of the fields in which they study, rather than by politicians, there is no controversy whatsoever (and many scientists/academics are quite religious, by the way: they just know the difference between this and science).

Libs wrote on Nov 7, 2008 9:08 AM:The libs have completely lost it. Now that they have won they think they are so big!

Karl wrote on Nov 7, 2008 9:10 AM:Tony San Miguel needs a lesson in compassion and compromise. With this left wingnut it's his way or the highway. I can certainly understand his pride in his party/political belief's but to discount completely the opposition's position is what has led us to this polarized society not GWB.

Go hug a Conservative today Tony. You may find a compassionate human being unlike yourself.

Peace

Apollo wrote on Nov 7, 2008 9:12 AM:Re: Get Real (8:50 a.m.)
Sorry to disappoint you, but EVOLUTION IS A FACT, provable by clearly established empirical, replicable methodologies of scientific protocol. Does that mean we know everything about it? No. We reach the limits of scientific knowledge in every field of scientific endeavor, and at the periphery, we do see questions and differing first impressions as to conclusions about preliminary details, but the FACT of evolution is absolutely established in science today, and is absolutely the backbone of biology and biochemistry.
Please understand that evolution does not rule out the possible existence of a higher power in the universe. However, that higher power, unseen, cannot be the subject of SCIENCE which is a protocol of observation. NONE of the many creation mythologies is based on SCIENTIFIC methodology or protocol. If and when there is a SCIENTIFIC basis for such claims, they can be taught in SCIENCE classrooms.
If you disagree, please cite specfically the SCIENTIFIC evidence to support the specific details of the Genesis account.

By the way, you didn't answer my question as to whether you believe the "alternative views" of astrology and a geocentric universe should be taught in astronomy classes.

Joe the Plumber wrote on Nov 7, 2008 9:13 AM:Where did everybody go? What about my book deal?

Alf wrote on Nov 7, 2008 9:15 AM:Well, "sin or sinner" at 8:22AM,
your point is well taken.

EVERYONE ELSE,
I have issued this challenge several times before and had no instances reported back.

So I ask AGAIN,
I challenge ANYONE to provide even so much
AS ONE INSTANCE in which homosexual marriage has harmed or damaged
ANY heterosexual marriage AT ALL
EXCEPT any in which the husband and wife were on opposing sides of this issue, in which case their marriage was destined to become one of the 50 percent that ends in divorce anyway.

If no examples are provided, then the "defense of marriage" or "protecting marriage" arguments for Prop. 8 and against homosexual marriage are nothing but hot air expelled by bigots and/or religious zealots and are worth nothing.
Regards, Alf.

TFB wrote on Nov 7, 2008 9:16 AM:The blog at 9:00 a.m. notes that the heartbeat starts rather early in pregnancy, and asks if that doesn't mean one is alive.
No, it does not.
Once measurable EEG brain waves STOP, you are declared BRAIN DEAD and your heart, STILL BEATING, can be removed for transplant to someone else. No, a beating heart is not what makes you a human person.
And measurable EEG brain waves do not begin until about the 24th or 25th week of pregnancy.

In any case, if you believe that the onset of human personhood occurs when the sperm fertilizes the egg, which occurs, by your claim, two weeks before the heart starts beating, then what is your point? Or do you accept the right to abort during those first two weeks?

Karl wrote on Nov 7, 2008 9:16 AM:Sorry Wanda, Liberals never have been and never will be "Anonymous". They should however start "Liberals Annoying Us", the qualifiers are everywhere.

Peace

not hate speech wrote on Nov 7, 2008 9:24 AM:some people seem to think that if I disagree with you and call you on what I think is your error, that I am somehow limiting your free speech, or that I am intolerant, or that I am accusing you of hate speech. No, I'm just disagreeing, and your replies seem to show that you think I'm right and resent it. But never mind, the point is that as a liberal, I totally and completely support your right to express your opinion. I truly welcome it, especially in public, because it gives me and others the chance to show, via facts and logic, how and why you are wrong. Your expressing yourself is good for the education of one and all.

Alf wrote on Nov 7, 2008 9:24 AM:Well, "esteban" at 8:44AM,
Rush and Bill O'Spin and the rest are quite safe.
Where else can comedians find such a treasure-trove, such a great source for their routines?
Aside from that, we have this thing called the First Amendment which protects such venom-spitters unless they cross the line into libel or slander.
"Ron" and a few others would be rendered silent if not for Rush, et al.
Regards, Alf.

Alf is right wrote on Nov 7, 2008 9:27 AM:Just because a majority of voters are bigots doesn't mean they aren't bigots. It just means that bigotry is popular. Just like the popular Jim Crow laws in the Sounth a few decades ago. Doesn't make them right. Never will. In time, the Prop 8 idea will go down because at its core, it's a violation of our core American values, no matter how popular. I wish we could've done this more efficiently, but if the mob must celebrate every day that keeps gays down as some kind of "moral" victory, so be it. The promised land is in sight, and our homosexual friends and relatives will get there.

To JVC wrote on Nov 7, 2008 9:31 AM:Richard Rider is not a Republican.

Linda wrote on Nov 7, 2008 9:34 AM:As much as I love and respect President Bush, he should be taken to the back side of the barn and given a few licks with a keen hickory (like my mother used to make me and my brother retrieve) for not having the wherewithall to stand up and alert the American people. If he had leaked the financial fiasco to Bill O’Reilly in 2003/2005 it would have been dealt with then (but Bush is too much of an upstanding man and he wouldn’t leak anything to the media). This one he should have followed his ‘gut’ feeling, I’m sure everything in his soul warned him to sound the alarm. After all, he was and still is the President of the greatest nation in the world.

President, you’ve been treated cruely and so dishonorably, just know you have a people out here in America that love you, respect you, honor you - you’ve had an unbelievably hard 2-3 years and I am ashamed of our politicians/media folks treating you so harshly. You deserve better and one day you will receive the greatest reward of all. A true Conservative, Linda

Mackeral wrote on Nov 7, 2008 9:37 AM:I almost wept when I saw the Soviet Hammer and Sickle flag being waved in joy outside the White House on Fox news. Lennon and Marks are laughing and Regan has turned over in his grave. I have spent 32 years defending this nation against all enemies foreign and domestic. I retire and this one slips bye. Maybe we needed this wakeup call like we got with Carter in the 70’s to pull our heads out of our rear. G-d help us all, and G-d help the Republic.

Karl wrote on Nov 7, 2008 9:42 AM:Okay Alf @ 9:15 AM, I'll answer and play devil's advocate here. Let's start with the Church in Massachusets that decided to drop it's adoption service instead of it's tax exempt status. I don't think I need to go into details here, it is easily found. Let's say a Christian couple who are unable to reproduce want dearly to adopt and are 2 days away when the Church dropped it's program. Regardless of their stance on Gay marriage, has this couple not been harmed?

No semantics, yes or no, has this couple been harmed?

Peace

Alf wrote on Nov 7, 2008 9:45 AM:Well, "To TFB" at 9:00AM,
I seriously doubt that the heartbeat you heard was that of a 2 week old, maybe a 4 week old.
That's beside the point.
A heart may beat or continue beating, but if a person (one who has been born) has no brain activity, they are dead, brain-dead.
That's the science,
that's the medicine,
that's the law.
Regards, Alf.

Mackeral wrote on Nov 7, 2008 9:48 AM:In one years we are going to be in deep depression with unemployment in double digits and folks who are cheering Hussein today will look back at 8 years of Bush and sight how good those days were, but on other hand most of people who voted for him now did’t have a job in first place so they only will be switching their kitchen to Obama soup kitchen.

Wanda wrote on Nov 7, 2008 9:49 AM:Hey, Karl, at 9:16 AM, whatever happened to "can't we all just get along" :)

Ms M wrote on Nov 7, 2008 9:57 AM:Libs
[-] wrote on Nov 7, 2008 9:08 AM:...Yes we do!

Think About It wrote on Nov 7, 2008 10:03 AM:To TFB[-] wrote on Nov 7, 2008 9:00 AM:
You need a brain wave.

Think About It wrote on Nov 7, 2008 10:06 AM:Karl[-] wrote on Nov 7, 2008 9:16 AM: It should be reversed. Barak has 360 EC votes. The rightist Conservative day is almost done. In fact, I suspect that the Republican Party will eject them.

Mackeral wrote on Nov 7, 2008 10:07 AM:BO is not experieced. America has made a bad choices. Can’t see how experiece, character, judment, reputation, services to country does not matter in America any more.

Debbie wrote on Nov 7, 2008 10:09 AM:We are so screwed beyond belief. The dems want the economy to tank. That’s how they maintain power… by any means necessary. Why would need them if you were prosperous? No, they need you dirt poor. It’s sad that so many fall for this pandering to your feelings and emotions with no idea of what could happen inthe future. We’ll swallow any socialist kool-aid Obama serves to us promising that it will fix the economy. …All with smiles and applause and comments like those above flashing from keyboards with all feelings and emotions and no reason whatsoever. The consequences of this Obama presidency will be dire indeed.

Sady the liberal sheep will be singing Obama’s praises as they stand in a food line. There is no reasoning with that kind of madness that fails to see consequences of their actions. Think food lines are a joke? Take a look at Milwaukee, WI. Those insane libs passed both a mandatory sick pay referendum as well as a county sales tax increase. Businesses are boarding up and leaving in droves. Lay-offs already started over the last 2 days. If the pace keeps as is, I predict the food pantries will be mobbed by mid-winter. If you see the riots and chaos in Milwaukee on the news in 3-6 months, you’ll know why. Obama.

Vista Granny wrote on Nov 7, 2008 10:15 AM:Well, today seems to be beat up on liberals day in the blog. Guess the McCain crowd is feeling bad and taking it out on the Obama supporters. As for a beating heart meaning you're alive -- not really. The body may be alive, but your brain is what makes you a person. BTW, for those who believe we have a soul which ascends to Heaven when we die -- where does our soul reside when we are alive? Where is Heaven?

Mackeral wrote on Nov 7, 2008 10:18 AM:Obama could not change a flat tire unless he had someone else tell him the tire was flat and how to do it. A complete empty suit with little thought proceses.

Karl wrote on Nov 7, 2008 10:18 AM:To JVC
[-] wrote on Nov 7, 2008 9:31 AM:Richard Rider is not a Republican.


Nor is the Govenator! Republican, Democrat is doesn't matter to me anymore. They're all lying cheating crooks. Except Wanda of course!

bodecea wrote on Nov 7, 2008 10:19 AM:To Karl,

You said it yourself...the church "CHOSE TO" ... no one forced them to. And they could still have done what they wanted by foregoing state funds....but they CHOSE TO shut down the program altogether like petulant brats not getting their way. Do not put that clear CHOICE on homosexual marriage. Please do not insult our intelligence like that.

Mackeral is wrong wrote on Nov 7, 2008 10:22 AM:If all hell breaks loose as he predicts under Obama, you can be sure we won't be looking back with longing at the Bush years. We'll be looking back with longing at the Clinton years. In case you hadn't noticed, the Bush years have been pretty bad, and he is leaving us with something that's falling off a cliff. You want to believe that when we hit the ground it's the fault of the guy in charge when it hits, and look back at the good old days when we were only falling, well, that's you. As to the hammer and sickle flag, I'd bet the house that it was being flown by conservatives like you to show the world how happy Marxists are...in other words, lying as usual. Take me up on it?

grj wrote on Nov 7, 2008 10:23 AM:Sorry to original poster but bush is the worst most unintelligent president in history and he is responsible for mass murder of innocent iraquis who did not attack us. He is a rich oil man who has no idea of working class problems, and it was a sad day in America when he was elected. Obama is willing to talk to head of countries and not start wars with them.
them. George Bush belongs in jail.

Think About It wrote on Nov 7, 2008 10:29 AM:grj[-] wrote on Nov 7, 2008 10:23 AM: My oh My Hombre. That is tough talk about putting GWB int the slammer. You are right too!

The New Patriot wrote on Nov 7, 2008 10:30 AM:From the Charleu Rose Show:
ROSE: I don't know what Barack Obama's worldview is.

BROKAW: No, I don't either.

ROSE: I don't know how he really sees where China is.

BROKAW: We don't know a lot about Barack Obama and the universe of his thinking about foreign policy.

ROSE: I don't really know. And do we know anything about the people who are advising him?

BROKAW: You know that's an interesting question.

ROSE: He is principally known through his autobiography and through very aspirational (sic) speeches, two of them.

BROKAW: I don't know what books he's read.

ROSE: What do we know about the heroes of Barack Obama?

BROKAW: There's a lot about him we don't know.

grachus wrote on Nov 7, 2008 10:34 AM:i wonder whether chuck has changed his name to Mackeral.

The New Patriot wrote on Nov 7, 2008 10:37 AM:(Having been told that opposing your government is the patriotic thing to do for many years...)

From the Charlie Rose Show:
(Jon Meacham of Newsweek magazine.)

MEACHAM: He's very elusive, Obama, which is fascinating for a man who's written two memoirs. At Grant Park he walks out with the family, and then they go away.

ROSE: Mmm. Mmm-hmm.

MEACHAM: Biden's back, you know, locked in the bar or something.

ROSE: (haughty chuckle)

MEACHAM: You know, they don't let him out. And have you ever seen a victory speech where there was no one else on stage?

ROSE: Mmm.

MEACHAM: No adoring wife, no cute kid. He is the messenger.

THOMAS: There is a slightly creepy cult of personality about all this. I mean, he's such an admirable --

ROSE: Slightly. Creepy. Cult of personality.

THOMAS: Yes.

ROSE: What's slightly creepy about it?

THOMAS: It -- it -- it just makes me a little uneasy that he's so singular. He's clearly managing his own spectacle. He's a deeply manipulative guy.

to Karl wrote on Nov 7, 2008 10:38 AM:In your example of the Church and the adopting couple, I would say that the couple was harmed by the Church's decision, wouldn't you? It wasn't FORCED, after all. But I still don't see how any heterosexual marriage or couple has been harmed by allowing gay marriage. Let's be honest. The Prop 8 supporters know that marriage is not damaged in any way by gay marriage. It's much simpler: they don't want the civic society to give homosexuality any kind of seal of approval. That's what it's all about, society giving the official ok to what they consider sinners. Ah, if only they felt the same way about other sins...such as lying...

Gotta Wonder wrote on Nov 7, 2008 10:40 AM:Republicans: You still read here right on this blog. The Ideologues still spouting forth the gloom and doom for this country and placing the past,present and even future on liberals. But, I must wonder, do they think that the 45 million votes for President Obama were all liberals? The defeat of the Republican Party in the past election gives them an excellent opportunity to rebuild their party to the regard and nature it was once held. They can rebuild their party from the ground up. I wonder if they have the gravitas to rid them selves of the conservative rightists who have brought them to the present catastrophe.

Oh Mackeral wrote on Nov 7, 2008 10:40 AM:All those things, character, reputation, service to country, and all the rest were tossed out the window when the GOP nominated George W Bush in 2000, and reconfirmed with vigor a few months ago with the party's selection of Sarah Palin. You have every right to dislike Obama, but at least dislike him for something that isn't true of your heroes as well.

to mackeral wrote on Nov 7, 2008 10:41 AM:did you mean Lenin and Marx or john Lennon and Marky Mark ?

Wanda wrote on Nov 7, 2008 10:43 AM:"Mackeral" has joined us today.

It's just a hunch, Mackeral, but Will Rogers never met you, did he?

Retired military?

(sorry, Karl, I tried to be good)

Karl wrote on Nov 7, 2008 10:43 AM:Wanda @ 9:49 AM:

Surely you jest (neither you or I would do that). At my age and intellect I reserve the right to forget what I said 2 minutes ago:(

I have a little magnet thingee on my fridge with two wood ovals. The bigger fixed one says "Golfing Today Was" and the smaller one hanging from a chain says "Good" on one side and "Bad" on the other side. My wife gets a warning, you do not. Need I say more?

Peace

Pay attention wrote on Nov 7, 2008 10:43 AM:I hope the GOPers here are paying attention to what Obama is up to. He is meeting today with economic experts, especially his advisor in this domain, Paul Volcker. Volcker worked for Carter and Reagan. Let me repeat that: Carter and Reagan. You see, this is what "country before party" looks like in action. Or, you might say, "competence over cronyism". Take notice, Bushies: this is how it's supposed to work.

Gotta Wonder wrote on Nov 7, 2008 10:47 AM:Mackeral[-] wrote on Nov 7, 2008 10:18 AM:
You certainly are a dead fish. Obama just led the most successful Presidential political campaign in the history of this country. Mr Barack Obama is now the President-elect of the United States of America. Then an ignorant ideologue chirps that he is an empty suit and could not change a tire. You are just one of those conservative whinners. Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaa,

Pooter wrote on Nov 7, 2008 10:48 AM:America is supposed to be ‘One nation under god”.. We just finished electing a ‘godless’ president! Make no mistake, Obama’s views & beleifs ARE SOCIALISTIC no matter what he said during his campaign. Obama has already stated that we are in for a rough ride & he may not be able to turn the economy around during the first 4 years. If thats the case, we wont last but 4yrs!

Democrats control Congress & now the White House, they have no one to blame but themselves when they fail.. But i’m sure by then they’ll manage to find a scapegoat because we all know that Democrats take no responsibilty for their actions!

Concerned wrote on Nov 7, 2008 10:50 AM:No one has even mentioned about what the democrats are trying to do as we speak. If you have a 401K…Kiss it goodbye. They are planning to take them over and put it in another fund, just like(SSI) and have everyone share in your hard work in trying to save for your future. Oh, they will offer you currently 3% and 401’s will be taxable. Thank you for your efforts in trying to secure your own future. Everyone who has not worried about their future thanks you for your donation to their future.

Bob wrote on Nov 7, 2008 10:50 AM:While grj, at 10:23 AM, may have a point with "George Bush belongs in jail", it's not going to happen.

Good news is, George Bush (along with Henry Kissinger) will no longer be able to travel outside the U.S. of A. without being arrested, tried and convicted of redundant war crimes.

Chris wrote on Nov 7, 2008 10:52 AM:Oh, this is even better. On the front page of the business secton of the Union Trubune there is a picture of the CEOs of the big three auto companies along with the leader of the UAW meeting with Nancy Pelosi and her minions and these CEOs are there with their hat in hand asking for money from the government. Now of course Ron, Asteroid, Bill, to Chris, sdraoul and the rest will keep telling us how great the capitalistic system is and of course they will never criticize those responsable for bringing it down. The afore named people are the same ones who support the outragious compensation for these crooks while talking trash about those of us , who made all the money in the first place, who think that we should get some of the crumbs that fall off of the table. You know when I get egg on my face I lay low but Ron and the rest just keep comming out here and keep peddleing their discredited idealogy. But these survival of the fitest have no shame. It's just second corus second verse and little bit louder and a little bit worse.

Gotta Wonder wrote on Nov 7, 2008 10:56 AM:Mackeral[-] wrote on Nov 7, 2008 9:48 AM:
You are getting to be a comic. I know you could do the Great Karnac routine that Johnny Carson created. This time, it will be based on that pessimistic crystal ball that you into which you peer. So, Chuck, quit being a dead fish.

oh Debbie wrote on Nov 7, 2008 10:57 AM:Debbie needs to study recent history. Debbie: look up how the economy was doing under Clinton, for example. How the budget was doing. You might also check to see the proportion of Americans living in poverty under Clinton compared to Bush. In fact, Debbie, look at any economic indicator at all, other than average CEO salary, and you'll find that the facts are clear: it's the Bush philosophy that produces more poverty, measured any way you choose. Poor Debbie. She actually thought that the Bush administration's version of reality that has been fed to us through his mouthpieces was actual reality. This is going to be a tough transition for Debbie, but in a few months, as Debbie gets reacquainted with the real world again, I know she'll be better off. Welcome back to earth, Debbie!

Alf wrote on Nov 7, 2008 10:57 AM:Well, "Linda" at 9:34AM,
GWB has not been treated anywhere near as
cruelly, disrespectfully, disdainfully and so dishonorably as he treated
the American People and
the United States Constitution.
It is my fervent hope that one of the FIRST things that Obama does will be to remove for all time
EVERY extra-Constitutional power that GWB has amassed for the Executive Branch and then see to it that the USA Patriot Act is stripped of everything that even comes close to violating the Constitution. Such powers, such violations of what every American holds dear and such treachery have no business in the hands of ANY one person, that is one of the things which our Constitution was set up to prohibit.
Regards, Alf

Gotta Wonder wrote on Nov 7, 2008 11:02 AM:Mackeral[-] wrote on Nov 7, 2008 9:37 AM:
This guy spent 32 years of his life in the
military. He cries moans and whines. Next, you'll be telling me that your USMC and saying Semper Fi.

Roger wrote on Nov 7, 2008 11:04 AM:According to Mackeral's 9:48 AM post, "...most of the people who voted for him (Obama) didn't have a job in the first place..."

Most of the 64,414,843 people (and counting) who voted for Obama "didn't have a job in the first place"?

Just curious, are you getting your statistics from the presigious Raoul Sinverguenza Institute?

Poor Pooter wrote on Nov 7, 2008 11:04 AM:Pooter is trying to cope with the real world now that all the propaganda about Obama has been exposed and defeated. Pooter will repeat those slogans for awhile but then, hopefully, wake up. Sorry Pooter. Obama is not really "godless": his Christian faith has walked the talk for his entire adulthood. Obama is not a socialist, but wants to adust the country's tax sceme to one that is better for the whole country, not just his wealthiest donors. Yes, he says it will take years. You know why? Because Obama, unlike your heroes, is actually honest and perceptive. He grasps, for example, that the world is complex and the problems are not simple. This, I'm afrain, is how a man of integrity would describe things. Your preference, I know, would be to say "Bring em on" or "Dead or Alive" or "We will never surrender" or some other bumper sticker that substitutes for wisdom in the GOP. No, the world is real, complicated, and difficult. For once, let's try to work in and with that world, instead of working only for votes and power. C'mon, Pooter, turn off the radio and join us! There's work to be done!

Gotta Wonder wrote on Nov 7, 2008 11:06 AM:Pooter[-] wrote on Nov 7, 2008 10:48 AM:
Another deaf, dumb and blind ideologue who spews forth nothing but unsubstantiated garbage as fact or future fact. By the way, one can believe in God and be a socialist at the same time.

Wanda wrote on Nov 7, 2008 11:18 AM:Per Pooter, at 10:48 AM, "We just finished electing a 'godless president".

First we were asked to belive Obama was a Muslim.

Next we were asked to believe that, despite being a Muslim, he sat in some Christian church in Chicago for twenty years.

Now we are asked to believe Obama is "godless".

Please have somebody who made it through third grade on the very first try explain to you how you really need to retract the previous lie before asserting the new one.

Thank you.

hardtack wrote on Nov 7, 2008 11:26 AM:The foundation for any successful democracy, or republic, is not simply an active constituency. Success lies in the hearts of the constituency. If it is liberty and personal responsibility, the society will flourish. If it is fear, jealousy, greed and hedonism, that democracy, or republic, will inevitably turn to tyranny.

The next decade will be interesting.

Wanda wrote on Nov 7, 2008 11:28 AM:Mackeral, at 9:48 AM, assures us we'll soon be looking back on George W. Bush administration and sighing "how good those days were".

Actually, Bush / Cheney did cause me to look back on the Nixon / Agnew administration as not as sleezy as it could have been :)

Alf wrote on Nov 7, 2008 11:29 AM:Well, "Karl" at 9:42AM,
from an objective view -
YES, the hypothetical couple have had
their hopes and their desires harmed, NO, the couple has been not been harmed and
NO, their MARRIAGE has not been harmed,
Yes, they may have been financially harmed, but it was the church that backed out.
Let me be clear about this,
I said "marriage", as in the union of two people.
Let me also be clear about the fact that, in this hypothetical case (or not so hypothetical case), it was the church's choice to cease its adoption services rather than to allow adoption (a public legal funcion) to homosexuals or homosexual couples.
Just like the person or people who wanted to refuse to issue a marriage license to a homosexual couple AFTER homosexual marriage was declared legal in CA, the church refused to comply with the law (for whatever grounds) while performing a PUBLIC function.
If the church wants to perform a PUBLIC function, it must comply with PUBLIC law as any business that services the PUBLIC must do.
ONE other thing, barring any proprietary interest in the child, that hypothetical couple could complete the adoption by hiring a lawyer or some other service to complete what amounts to a court supervised transaction or contract.
Cold, yes.
Realistic, also yes.
Putting the blame where it belongs, yes.
Regards, Alf.

Gotta Wonder wrote on Nov 7, 2008 11:32 AM:Concerned[-] wrote on Nov 7, 2008 10:50 AM: I hope that all this planning will not interfere with the inaugural ball. Most of the 401 were pretty much decimated in the stock market decline. Whining and crying. Mr. Obama has not even taken the oath yet. Just gotta wonder about folks like you.

Bill wrote on Nov 7, 2008 11:35 AM:Since no Obama supporters had any counter argument for my post yesterday, I am going to post it again.

DD Wiz' tax experts need to read it since they obviously missed it when reading Obamas plan.

I challenge any Obama supporter to counter.

This is what I wrote yesterday:

John Ramirez obviously hasnt read Obamas tax plan if he thinks America won.

The reason investors like Warren Buffett supported Obamas plan is because the super wealthy derive the great majority of their income from capital gains which are taxed at a rate of only 15% as oppsed to the income bracket Buffett would be in if it were your standard income tax rate. Those investors are few and far between as compared to the hard working American families Obamas plan targets.

Buffetts endorsement swayed a lot of Americans.

Obama isnt just going to roll back the Bush tax cuts. Oh no, he plans on eliminating itemized deductions altogether, eliminate the cap on social security taxes, increase the social security tax by 4-6% and increase the capital gains tax from 15 to 30%. Leading Democrats want another 2% -5% surtax, and there is serious discussion on taxing 401(k) plans.

The net effect will be a drop in earned income from 50% to 30% before state taxes. This will be even lower in states like California with a high income tax rate and mortgage costs that are not deductible.

How did the middle class win again?

This will kill the incentive for anyone to earn more than $250,000.00. That means fewer jobs.

Conversely, the bottom 50% will pay no federal taxes (income or social security) yet they76 get rebate checks.

This is pure socialism and wont benefit anyone but those who seek power.

The middle class will pay for this too.

DD Wiz claims her "tax experts" explained Obamas plan to her and approved.

How did these tax experts miss all this?

I would get a new tax guy given this kind of malpractice.

This is a direct assault on the middle class and NO tax expert would ever endorse such a redistribution scam.

Thank God I am retired with a military pension and own an all cash vending business with no employees.

I can make the numbers look any way I please to adjust to Obamas new taxes.

I would be willing to bet that every last Obama supporter in this room didnt know all this.

Read his plan people......Read his plan!

Now, Obama is already preparing the public for a let down as he and Pelosi and already saying he wont be able to keep all his campaign promises.

You got conned America!

Now, which liberal has the guts to admit it?e with an argument that makes sense.

I know if I had DD Wiz tax experts advising me, I would look for a new tax guy.

The stock market isnt getting any bounce from Obama being elected either.

Thats not a good sign that the market has any confidence in Obamas solutions that are sure to hammer the middle class.

Personal Responsibility wrote on Nov 7, 2008 11:37 AM:Hardtack at 11:26 a.m. says that greed and lack of accepting personal responsibility are impediments to "successful democracy."
Is Hardtack a liberal?
What I see is conservatives constantly in defense of unchecked greed and having those with the most take even more from those who produce it.
What I have seen the last few days is conservatives unable to accept PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY for the shambles their policies have made of our economy, our infrastructure and our standing in the world, and they have already started trying to shift the blame to Obama, WHO ISN'T EVEN PRESIDENT YET!

Alf wrote on Nov 7, 2008 11:39 AM:BTW, "Karl",
can you have your contractors license revoked or suffer some other penalty if it is proven that you refuse to perform work for blacks while performing work for whites?
I don't know, but I believe so, and you are one person who I can trust to give me a credible answer.
Regards, Alf.

Golly Gee Mackeral wrote on Nov 7, 2008 11:43 AM:I didn't know that there were that many people without jobs. Half the country out of a job, it's worse than I thought.

Basic Civil Rights wrote on Nov 7, 2008 11:46 AM:Earlier today, I was talking to a friend about how sad it made me to hear that CA, FL, and AZ had all voted "YES" to proposition 8. She said to me, "Why should you care? You don't live in those states and you're not gay."

Why should I care??

This is an issue of basic civil rights. As a nation, we were all witness to one of the greatest moments in history, and steps forward, this past Tuesday night. In the midst of all that seemingly forward movement, we learn that Proposition 8 (which, for those that are living under a rock, bans gay marriage at the State constitutional level) has passed in three states. One step forward, three huge steps back.

Marriage, before anything else, is a CIVIL UNION. Before all the religious zealots jump all over me for that statement, think about it for a moment. I mean really think about it.

Did Neanderthal man have any formal religion or church? No, they didn't. What they did have though was a very basic ritual for claiming their mate. The idea of marriage has existed long before any formal religion was ever thought up.

The idea of marriage existing only between a man and a woman is not a CIVIL issue, but a RELIGIOUS one. Whatever happened to the idea of a separation between Church and State? It is supposed to exist, but it doesn't.

In order for a person of any faith to be married, the couple in question must first obtain a CIVILLY issued marriage license. CIVIL. Funny how it keeps coming back to the issue of civil rights, huh? Atheists can marry, can't they? There's no religion involved in their unions yet they're allowed to marry. Keep the issue of religion out of this and there really isn't an issue at all.

If the government really wants to keep the idea of marriage between a man and woman only because of the ideas perpetuated by religion, then they would have to put a stop to all civil marriage unions. No more going to City Hall, no more Vegas quickies, and no more internet ordained Ministers performing a union for friends or family. If marriage is to only exist between a man and a woman as defined by religions beliefs, than the only people who should be allowed to join the couple would be those of a religious order.

Won't all the judges and mayors be pleased to hear that they'll lose revenue.

I don't feel that there should be a Federal ruling on gay marriage, although, based on a conversation with my cousin today, it seems as though Proposition 8 may go to the U.S. Supreme Court. It is going to be this generation's Roe v. Wade. I personally feel that there should be a Federal decision put in place to protect the CIVIL RIGHTS of same sex couples with regard to wills, health care, property, etc. Let each state decide what to do about the issue of marriage. Issues of Civil Rights, as is the case with Proposition 8, should NEVER be put into the hands of voters.

Imagine what our world would be like if voters had been the ones to decide whether or not blacks or women could vote or if blacks should be allowed in the same schools as whites.

Think about it.

No, I mean really think about it.
Thank you EM.

The New Patriot wrote on Nov 7, 2008 11:49 AM:(Because, I have been told for eight years that opposing the new administration is "patriotic.")

Obama supporters say: The People have spoken – get over it! (Then sigh when the carping continues.)

Prop. 8 supporters say: The People have spoken – get over it! (Then sigh when the carping continues.)

But then this Blog is all about carping. Darn little information being exchanged.

This is the truth wrote on Nov 7, 2008 11:50 AM:Hey Libs guess what just because you say that evolution has been proven does not make it so!

Lets try this...lets stop your heart keep your brain waves going and then see what quality of life you have!!

Libs love to say that a fetus is not a child to alleivate their guilt over murdering a child!!!

Libs would put thier lives on the line to save an animal, but not give a second thought to ending a child's life!!!!

Libs love to say their is no God, to alleviate their fear of one day standing before God and giving account for their Godless lives!!!!!


Sorry folks this is the real truth!!!!!!

OBSERVATON wrote on Nov 7, 2008 12:02 PM:TBILISI—Thousands of anti-government demonstrators poured into the streets of Georgia’s capital, Tbilisi, on Friday, hoping to weaken the government of President Mikheil Saakashvili as it strives to maintain power despite a catastrophic war with Russia and growing economic malaise at home.

Ms M wrote on Nov 7, 2008 12:03 PM:Question to all of you folks that are already dooming the Obama presidency - What did you foresee when Bush took office? I have asked this question many many times and can't seem to get an answer. See, if you saw the incompetancy of Bush 8 years ago then I could value your opinion. But if you did not and still don't then your opinion is worth about............

Shamazon wrote on Nov 7, 2008 12:05 PM:What is it in people that makes them believe the absolute worst about everyone that believes different from them? Do you really think that every Liberal is like that boob in Carlsbad that thrummed that lovely elderly couple? Do you really think that the people who steal 'No on 8 signs' don't have a loony or two in the fold? I never assumed that the guy taking signs out of my yard (and replacing them with his!) was representative of his party, OR his religion. He was on the fringes. I don't understand this philosophy. Before you judge the people's choice, let him get into office; let the props take effect, see if they're good things. No matter who is in office, there will be people who will pick them apart, down to their choice of toothpaste. Don't paint with such a broad stroke. You'll only spill paint on yourself.

Same old patriot wrote on Nov 7, 2008 12:05 PM:I'm an old, and old fashioned patriot. I was a patriot before people said that long hair meant you weren't patriotic and before people said that if you favor equality for Blacks meant you weren't patriotic. And when people were called unpatriotic for expressing their opinion about the Vietnam war, a war based on lies. But I was also a patriot when I opposed Reagan's violations of international law, promoting terrorism in Central America, and when I opposed many of Bill Clinton's more right-wing policies. All my "carping" about Bush were totally patriotic, and if Obama strays from what I feel is best for the country, I'll carp about that. Country over party, not as a catchy but phony slogan but as coherent, principled guide to action. That's my idea of a patriotic view. Simple.

McCain speaks wrote on Nov 7, 2008 12:06 PM:I was and still am very impressed by McCain's speech on Tuesday Nov 2 2008.

McCain presented a fantastic
speech and had a very good way with his audience the several times he had to stop some nasty booos and other noises sounds etc.

McCain will be remembered by many of us for his from his heart and gracious delivery speech. McCain was excellent, outstanding.

I may not remember all the words, but I will always remember that he was positive.

I think McCain will work well with both sides of the aisle. He sounded that he really was and still is for COUNTRY FIRST. Not red states not blue states but the United States of America.

I think Obama and McCain will work well together. They both want many or all of the same thing(s) for the United States of America.

McCain's speech earned him a 100% score and I strongly believe that he will continue to help heal our country.

His life of public service will end on a very high note.

"take the high road; no mud slinging"

The best to President-Elect Obama. He and We can do it. Go Obama.

Wanda wrote on Nov 7, 2008 12:07 PM:Does anybody miss sdraoul's misinformed opinions and insipid drivel?

Me neither.

Right about McCain wrote on Nov 7, 2008 12:22 PM:I was also very impressed with McCain's speech Tuesday. He seemed like himself again. His body language was relaxed and genuine again, not forced. His words were like the ones that we used to hear when I, and many liberals, considered supporting him in previous elections. My fantasy is that he has freed himself from the evil, power-crazed, cynical people who run the GOP, and is relieved even as he is disappointed. I know he will work well with others, as he has in the past. A few of his crucial stances on things make it impossible for me to ever vote for him, but I can still admire someone who genuinely works for his country, as he most certainly did NOT do as a Presidential candidate. Humanity and your country welcome you home, John.

Doug in Vista wrote on Nov 7, 2008 12:30 PM:Hey Chuck (or anyone else) can you tell me where you got your quote of "Thank the Lord, I no longer have to worry about my mortgage payment or gas for my car" from? It sounds like another urban legend made up my frustrated conservatives like the legendary Reagan welfare queen of 1980.

not truth to me wrote on Nov 7, 2008 12:34 PM:I get so sick of people saying that a fertilized egg is a child. It's not. It's a fertilized egg. Then, if things go a certain way, it'll be an embryo. Then, if things go a certain way, it'll be a fetus. Then, if things