LAKE ELSINORE -- A proposed crackdown on "aggressive" panhandling has some of the city's self-described courteous beggars scratching their heads.

"What is 'aggressive' really?" asked a young man who identified himself as Robert.

It was about 10:30 a.m. on a weekday and Robert, who did not give his last name, was sitting at a table in the city park at the end of Main Street with a woman dubbed Granny, a 72-year-old who said she has lived in Lake Elsinore for more than 40 years.

Shawn Bhutta, a member of the city's Public Safety Advisory Commission, said in a telephone interview that he would define "aggressive panhandling" as asking someone for money more than once or following someone.

The issue has been thrust into the public forum since the commission recently asked city employees to write up an ordinance that addresses the sensitive topic.

"I was told that on one occasion there was a woman walking to the store carrying her child and a panhandler chased her down for money. This is not just aggressive, but point-blank scary," Bhutta said.

Both Robert and Granny say they take advantage of the services offered by the area's food pantries and charities. Granny said she stays with her daughter at night and spends time in the park by day.

Granny, who carries some of her belongings in a shopping cart, said she doesn't have a home of her own but added that she's planning to move into a new place with her daughter on the first of the month. Robert, who looked to be about 20 or so, didn't say where he sleeps at night but he said he has had a job recently.

Robert said he has asked people for money during his time on the streets, but he found the idea of "aggressive" panhandling amusing and imagined how it might go down: "Give me your money, fool!" he said, laughing.

Granny, talking about the commission members proposing the ordinance, said, "They'd be panhandling if they were out there hungry. Try helping someone. Try doing something for them."

Some of the other panhandlers interviewed on a recent morning had heard about the commission's request for an ordinance to be drafted, but they were vague on specifics. Some wondered why an ordinance was necessary as the city already has laws on the books that address loitering and robbery.

If the ordinance is eventually approved by the commission, it will be sent to the City Council, which will have the final say on whether it is adopted, said Mark Dennis, the city's spokesman.

Dennis said the city employees tasked with writing the ordinance will be using existing ordinances in other cities to put together a legally defensible piece of city code that will prohibit soliciting when people are standing near ATMs or loading groceries into their car -- moments, he says, when "people feel vulnerable."

The ordinance also is expected to address panhandlers who sit in the public right of way, such as the offramp of a freeway or the median of a street.

The commission took up the issue in response to complaints from members of the public and some of the city's businesses, Dennis said.

Earlier this year, the council adopted one of the commission's proposed ordinances that moved newspaper racks away from the city's curbs. Last year, the council adopted the commission's graffiti ordinance, which beefed up penalties for taggers.

Bhutta said he agrees with the rest of the commission that the city's residents shouldn't be harassed by panhandlers. But he said any new ordinance should be enforceable.

"We keep creating ordinances and keep giving ourselves pats on the back, but what is the point of creating something and not being able to implement it?" Bhutta asked, referencing the graffiti ordinance.

That ordinance is triggered when police catch someone in the act, which Bhutta said is "difficult to accomplish."

On Aug. 8, the Friday night that found many people huddled in front of TVs watching the opening ceremony of the Olympics, there was a clear-cut example of "aggressive" panhandling.

According to police, officers arrested a panhandler who allegedly beat up a man near the Jack in the Box on Riverside Drive after the man didn't give him money for cigarettes. The victim was taken to a local hospital for treatment of his injuries and the attacker was arrested, city records show.

Both Robert and Granny had heard about the incident and they knew the attacker had been "locked up."

"He got the axe," Robert said.

As they talked, a man named Nathan approached their table. He sat down and ripped apart an egg salad sandwich that he picked up at one of the "feedings" offered by an area charitable organization. Nathan gave Robert half of the sandwich and he started rolling a cigarette.

Nathan, who also did not give his last name, said the proposed ordinance sounds like typical "bureaucracy B.S." and an attempt by someone to make a political name for himself.

Nathan said he takes care to respect people who either don't or can't part with their change.

"I say 'God bless' and go on my way. I try to treat other people as I would want to be treated. It's one of the things I picked up from my dad," Nathan said.

Told of the comments made by the group at the park, Bhutta said "professional panhandling" is a serious issue in Lake Elsinore.

"There wouldn't be a need for further laws if there wasn't a problem," he said.

Over on a stretch of Riverside Drive -- just west of an AM-PM gas station on the corner of Lakeshore Drive -- Chris Fredericks was sitting on a masonry wall with a dog, Lace, at her feet. The pair had just come from a shaded corner near a Dumpster in front of the station's minimarket.

A minimarket employee walked toward Fredericks and told her she was not allowed to sit on company property.

"If I see you again, I'm going to call the police," the employee said.

Fredericks, a 41-year-old who has lived in the city for about six years, said she wasn't discouraged or upset about the threat.

"This town has been a blessing to me," she said, talking about the people who have helped her and the organizations that provide food and clothing.

Asked about the proposed panhandling ordinance, Fredericks, wearing a bikini top and pleated trousers, said she supports the idea because she tries to be as courteous as possible when asking for help.

"I know what's up in the world," she said, describing her ability to spot kind and generous people by the color of the cars they drive. "It's the idiots and drunks out there. They don't know what's up in the world."

Contact staff writer Aaron Claverie at (951) 676-4315, Ext. 2624, or aclaverie@californian.com.